Discussion:
10's of 1,000's, perhaps 100's of 1,000,s Saw God!
(too old to reply)
Robert
2017-01-08 23:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Many have read this, yet not seen it.

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 

Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)

Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.

Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 

Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.

Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.

Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...

Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.

Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.

So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.

Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."

Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.

JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
Patrick
2017-01-09 01:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Simple.
Jesus is God.
God the Father is God.
Any questions?
astarte
2017-01-09 01:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Except, Moses, the elders of israel with moses, enoch, & elijah. & that
may not be all.

snip continuation of ignorance by Robert.

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
duke
2017-01-09 13:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..

Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Robert
2017-01-09 19:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..
Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.

In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.

You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
astarte
2017-01-09 20:52:17 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 11:48:30 -0800, Robert snip, 115 lines
--
Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
Patrick
2017-01-09 22:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
Robert
2017-01-10 16:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it, nor do you even know what it means. You
only say it because you were taught it, you were even told that if you
did not accept that teaching you would go to hell. They forced you,
out of fear, to accept it.
Patrick
2017-01-10 19:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Post by Robert
nor do you even know what it means. You
only say it because you were taught it, you were even told that if you
did not accept that teaching you would go to hell. They forced you,
out of fear, to accept it.
I accept it because I understand it enough to know it exists.
You see, I read the Bible, and especially the words of Jesus.
Robert
2017-01-10 20:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
nor do you even know what it means. You
only say it because you were taught it, you were even told that if you
did not accept that teaching you would go to hell. They forced you,
out of fear, to accept it.
I accept it because I understand it enough to know it exists.
You see, I read the Bible, and especially the words of Jesus.
Patrick
2017-01-10 22:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
Good guess.
I am impressed.
Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy

Since the Bible had not been assembled yet, what do you think Paul was
speaking about when he referred to "Scripture." The gospels had not
yet been written, and the Old testament wasn't totally accepted by
anyone. So, what do you believe the "scriptures" were? Could they
have been some of the letters Paul had written to the various groups?
Robert
2017-01-10 23:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
Good guess.
I am impressed.
Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy
Since the Bible had not been assembled yet, what do you think Paul was
speaking about when he referred to "Scripture." The gospels had not
yet been written, and the Old testament wasn't totally accepted by
anyone. So, what do you believe the "scriptures" were? Could they
have been some of the letters Paul had written to the various groups?
All the Old Testament had been assembled for centuries and canonized,
it was also all translated into Greek 300+ years before Christ came.

As to the NT letters had already been written, non canonized at that
point. Paul was also very familiar with writing under the inspiration
of the Holy Spirit, even making reference to that fact a couple times.

1Co 7:5  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a
time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come
together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 
1Co 7:6  But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 

The OT was accepted by all Jews. Gentiles also knew it was supposed to
be the word of God and was accepted as truth by believers. The NT
canonized a hundred plus years later had to conform to the OT and to
each other in the NT or be tossed out. The Holy Spirit have a lot to
do in showing the conformity of the messages of God and of prophetic
scripture.

Even Peter spoke of the "Oracles of God". 1 Peter 4:11 IOW's man can
have full understanding from God as to what is Godly and what is not.
Patrick
2017-01-11 01:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
Good guess.
I am impressed.
Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy
Since the Bible had not been assembled yet, what do you think Paul was
speaking about when he referred to "Scripture." The gospels had not
yet been written, and the Old testament wasn't totally accepted by
anyone. So, what do you believe the "scriptures" were? Could they
have been some of the letters Paul had written to the various groups?
All the Old Testament had been assembled for centuries and canonized,
it was also all translated into Greek 300+ years before Christ came.
If you are going to lie, at least TRY to make your words believable.
Rabbinic Judaism recognizes the twenty-four books of the Masoretic
Text, commonly called the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. There is no
scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some
scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (140-40 BCE)
while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or
even later. According to Marc Zvi Brettler, the Jewish scriptures
outside the Torah and the Prophets were fluid, different groups seeing
authority in different books.

The differences between the Hebrew Bible and other versions of the Old
Testament such as the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Peshitta, the
Latin Vulgate, the Greek Septuagint, the Ethiopian Bible and other
canons, are more substantial. Many of these canons include books and
sections of books that the others do not.

Different religious groups include different books in their Biblical
canons, in varying orders, and sometimes divide or combine books.
Christian Bibles range from the 66 books of the Protestant canon to
the 81 books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church canon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Christian
churches may have minor differences in their lists of accepted books
Post by Robert
As to the NT letters had already been written, non canonized at that
point. Paul was also very familiar with writing under the inspiration
of the Holy Spirit, even making reference to that fact a couple times.
Did St Paul consider his letters to be "Scripture?"
Post by Robert
1Co 7:5  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a
time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come
together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 
1Co 7:6  But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 
Nice quote.
Has nothing to do with this discussion.
Post by Robert
The OT was accepted by all Jews.
There was no Old testament until there was a "New" Testament.

The 39 books of the Old Testament form the Bible of Judaism, while the
Christian Bible includes those books and also the 27 books of the New
Testament. This list of books included in the Bible is known as the
canon. It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father
Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books
belonging to the canon.

Obviously the first five books (sometimes called the Torah or the
Pentateuch) were the first to be accepted as canonical.

The prophets’ writings were also not brought together in a single form
until about 200 BC. The remaining Old Testament books were adopted as
canonical even later. The Old Testament list was not finally fixed
much before the birth of Christ. The Jewish people were widely
scattered by this time and they really needed to know which books were
the authoritative Word of God because so many other writings claiming
divine authority were floating around.
Post by Robert
Gentiles also knew it was supposed to
be the word of God and was accepted as truth by believers. ..
Which version?
Just the first 5 books?
Or the 5 plus Prophets and kings?
Post by Robert
The NT
canonized a hundred plus years later
Long after St Paul was dead.
Therefore, his letters were not considered Scripture.
Post by Robert
had to conform to the OT and to
each other in the NT or be tossed out. The Holy Spirit have a lot to
do in showing the conformity of the messages of God and of prophetic
scripture.
OK
Post by Robert
Even Peter spoke of the "Oracles of God". 1 Peter 4:11 IOW's man can
have full understanding from God as to what is Godly and what is not.
This has nothing to do with the discussion.
Robert
2017-01-11 07:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Duke is 100 percent correct.
Since you do not understand or believe in the Trinity, you will never
accept what real Christians believe.
You need to get over it.
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
Good guess.
I am impressed.
Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy
Since the Bible had not been assembled yet, what do you think Paul was
speaking about when he referred to "Scripture." The gospels had not
yet been written, and the Old testament wasn't totally accepted by
anyone. So, what do you believe the "scriptures" were? Could they
have been some of the letters Paul had written to the various groups?
All the Old Testament had been assembled for centuries and canonized,
it was also all translated into Greek 300+ years before Christ came.
If you are going to lie, at least TRY to make your words believable.
Rabbinic Judaism recognizes the twenty-four books of the Masoretic
Text, commonly called the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. There is no
scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some
scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (140-40 BCE)
while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or
even later. According to Marc Zvi Brettler, the Jewish scriptures
outside the Torah and the Prophets were fluid, different groups seeing
authority in different books.
The differences between the Hebrew Bible and other versions of the Old
Testament such as the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Peshitta, the
Latin Vulgate, the Greek Septuagint, the Ethiopian Bible and other
canons, are more substantial. Many of these canons include books and
sections of books that the others do not.
Different religious groups include different books in their Biblical
canons, in varying orders, and sometimes divide or combine books.
Christian Bibles range from the 66 books of the Protestant canon to
the 81 books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church canon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Christian
churches may have minor differences in their lists of accepted books
What a hodge podge of information, some truth, some false, some
misleading, all for various reasons and none of it from your
educational background or knowledge.

At this point it is rather hard to communicate with you one this
subject since you have no footing, nothing to base your belief or
understanding on, and to call someone else a liar from the weak
position you stand in is utter nonsense.

To quote modern day so-called Hebrew Jews is ridiculous. They are
outside of God, like their forefathers, and to think of them as
someone to learn from is ridiculous, try reading the Old testament,
especially the minor prophets to find out why.

Same thing with other pseudo-religious groups.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
As to the NT letters had already been written, non canonized at that
point. Paul was also very familiar with writing under the inspiration
of the Holy Spirit, even making reference to that fact a couple times.
Did St Paul consider his letters to be "Scripture?"
As to his personal knowledge, I can only say based on scripture like
the one below that I gave you as an example, but even that seems to
have passed by your understanding.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
1Co 7:5  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a
time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come
together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 
1Co 7:6  But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 
Nice quote.
Has nothing to do with this discussion.
It has everything to do with the discussion because of v6.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
The OT was accepted by all Jews.
There was no Old testament until there was a "New" Testament.
True, but a mundane point nonetheless. The scrolls, scripture, or
whatever you would like to call them were in existence since the time
Judaism began.
Post by Patrick
The 39 books of the Old Testament form the Bible of Judaism, while the
Christian Bible includes those books and also the 27 books of the New
Testament. This list of books included in the Bible is known as the
canon. It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father
Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books
belonging to the canon.
Incorrect.
Post by Patrick
Obviously the first five books (sometimes called the Torah or the
Pentateuch) were the first to be accepted as canonical.
By whom? and when?
Post by Patrick
The prophets’ writings were also not brought together in a single form
until about 200 BC. The remaining Old Testament books were adopted as
canonical even later. The Old Testament list was not finally fixed
much before the birth of Christ. The Jewish people were widely
scattered by this time and they really needed to know which books were
the authoritative Word of God because so many other writings claiming
divine authority were floating around.
Here you go, speaking in vague generalities, mixing apples and
oranges.

What we call the OT was fixed before the very first Greek translation
done by the 70.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Gentiles also knew it was supposed to
be the word of God and was accepted as truth by believers. ..
Which version?
Just the first 5 books?
Or the 5 plus Prophets and kings?
Gentile through out history, as they recognized the God of the Jews as
superior to all of their Gods. It was only important to those who
wanted to convert, plus a few Gentile kings who truly understood that
the God of the Jews was the supreme God.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
The NT
canonized a hundred plus years later
Long after St Paul was dead.
Therefore, his letters were not considered Scripture.
By whom? Why were so many copies of his letters made, and why were
they spread around the world? Same with the other books of the NT
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
had to conform to the OT and to
each other in the NT or be tossed out. The Holy Spirit have a lot to
do in showing the conformity of the messages of God and of prophetic
scripture.
OK
Post by Robert
Even Peter spoke of the "Oracles of God". 1 Peter 4:11 IOW's man can
have full understanding from God as to what is Godly and what is not.
This has nothing to do with the discussion.
God speaking to the individual, by the Holy Spirit will lead that one
into truth, as well as distinguish truths from lies, as well as show
the individual where the bible was mistranslated and by confirming
scripture from other parts of God's word what was the original
content of the verses in question.

God's spirit is an important part of the discussion for without him
there would be NO Bible, old, new or whatever.
astarte
2017-01-11 12:10:39 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:52:02 -0800, Robert wow, 222 lines to pose for the
world to laugh at.
snip
--
Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
asherah
2017-01-11 12:15:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:33:18 -0800, Robert snip, & gag.



Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
unknown
2017-01-10 22:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
The OT is the reference. The bible as commonly understood was in the
future. Its final accepted form was hundreds of years in the making after
Paul.

So the observation the bible does not mention itself is 100 percent
correct. This remains so even when in time the NT is assembled in its
current form.

The only mention in it is Peter making a passing reference to some of the
letters of Paul, nothing else.

Many dearly held doctrines and rituals in some circles are not found in
scripture. More important, no possible foundation for them is there.

"Slain in the spirit" comes to mind as one among many.
Robert
2017-01-11 00:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
The OT is the reference. The bible as commonly understood was in the
future. Its final accepted form was hundreds of years in the making after
Paul.
So the observation the bible does not mention itself is 100 percent
correct. This remains so even when in time the NT is assembled in its
current form.
A whole lot of fairy dancing you've done there.

First of all, we are living in the 21st century. The Bible as it
currently exists has existed that way en total for 1900 years. All the
mudslinging you've done changes nothing. You can discount all the
various canonizers of the Bible that you want, including all your
various "church fathers" that you adhere to, except for this point,
but the end result is the bible we use now. In that Bible are the
references by Paul, Jesus, Peter to the word of God. Scriptures. You
can even pretend that the word bible did not exist and therefore there
was no bible. So what.

I gave scripture confirming what was asked, and it is also by that
basis that the bible is even canonized. So go to the hollows and do
your two steppin dance, you'll get no traction here, or from the bible
to support your heresy.
Post by unknown
The only mention in it is Peter making a passing reference to some of the
letters of Paul, nothing else.
Many dearly held doctrines and rituals in some circles are not found in
scripture. More important, no possible foundation for them is there.
AYUP
Post by unknown
"Slain in the spirit" comes to mind as one among many.
That isn't a doctrine, but a description of an event.

Veneration of Mary, and Saints, another.
unknown
2017-01-11 02:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
The OT is the reference. The bible as commonly understood was in the
future. Its final accepted form was hundreds of years in the making after
Paul.
So the observation the bible does not mention itself is 100 percent
correct. This remains so even when in time the NT is assembled in its
current form.
A whole lot of fairy dancing you've done there.
First of all, we are living in the 21st century. The Bible as it
currently exists has existed that way en total for 1900 years. All the
mudslinging you've done changes nothing. You can discount all the
various canonizers of the Bible that you want, including all your
various "church fathers" that you adhere to, except for this point,
but the end result is the bible we use now. In that Bible are the
references by Paul, Jesus, Peter to the word of God. Scriptures. You
can even pretend that the word bible did not exist and therefore there
was no bible. So what.
At 100 D the individual books of it had been written. For centuries to
come those individual books were in contention to be included in a canon
with other books.>

The final content as we have it was not there by 100 because no collection
of those books alone existed for centuries to come. .
Post by Robert
I gave scripture confirming what was asked, and it is also by that
basis that the bible is even canonized. So go to the hollows and do
your two steppin dance, you'll get no traction here, or from the bible
to support your heresy.
It was never "canonized", it was gradually adopted by local churches by
consenses over centuries. No single individual made it possible.>
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
The only mention in it is Peter making a passing reference to some of the
letters of Paul, nothing else.
Many dearly held doctrines and rituals in some circles are not found in
scripture. More important, no possible foundation for them is there.
AYUP
Post by unknown
"Slain in the spirit" comes to mind as one among many.
That isn't a doctrine, but a description of an event.
Those who do it will tell why it is valid and proper and should be sought,
that is the doctrine underlaying it. But none of it found in scripture,
all of it of modern invention.
Post by Robert
Veneration of Mary, and Saints, another.
Veneration, ie. a display of respect was being done during the lives of
mary and the apostles, all saints. They are alive and with Christ and the
reason for respect does not cease at death.
Robert
2017-01-11 08:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Real Christians believe in the Trinity.
You obviously do not.
The bible does not teach it,
Yup.
The Bible also doesn't teach the Bible exists.
Yes, it does.
2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
The OT is the reference. The bible as commonly understood was in the
future. Its final accepted form was hundreds of years in the making after
Paul.
So the observation the bible does not mention itself is 100 percent
correct. This remains so even when in time the NT is assembled in its
current form.
A whole lot of fairy dancing you've done there.
First of all, we are living in the 21st century. The Bible as it
currently exists has existed that way en total for 1900 years. All the
mudslinging you've done changes nothing. You can discount all the
various canonizers of the Bible that you want, including all your
various "church fathers" that you adhere to, except for this point,
but the end result is the bible we use now. In that Bible are the
references by Paul, Jesus, Peter to the word of God. Scriptures. You
can even pretend that the word bible did not exist and therefore there
was no bible. So what.
At 100 D the individual books of it had been written. For centuries to
come those individual books were in contention to be included in a canon
with other books.>
Whatever that is supposed to mean. Take note of your use of the word
Canon here. ***
Post by unknown
The final content as we have it was not there by 100 because no collection
of those books alone existed for centuries to come. .
Still makes no sense
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
I gave scripture confirming what was asked, and it is also by that
basis that the bible is even canonized. So go to the hollows and do
your two steppin dance, you'll get no traction here, or from the bible
to support your heresy.
It was never "canonized", it was gradually adopted by local churches by
consenses over centuries. No single individual made it possible.>
It was never "canonized"? Yet you used the word canon above see ***

Even your church would disagree with you.
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
The only mention in it is Peter making a passing reference to some of the
letters of Paul, nothing else.
Many dearly held doctrines and rituals in some circles are not found in
scripture. More important, no possible foundation for them is there.
AYUP
Post by unknown
"Slain in the spirit" comes to mind as one among many.
That isn't a doctrine, but a description of an event.
Those who do it will tell why it is valid and proper and should be sought,
that is the doctrine underlaying it. But none of it found in scripture,
all of it of modern invention.
Then show evidence of it, all we have is your word, your authority and
none of it very meaningful at this point.
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Veneration of Mary, and Saints, another.
Veneration, ie. a display of respect was being done during the lives of
mary and the apostles, all saints. They are alive and with Christ and the
reason for respect does not cease at death.
Wrong, and any pagan would laugh at your usage of "veneration", they
recognize it as worship, just like when they venerate their gods.

You venerate false images.
astarte
2017-01-11 12:09:44 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:04:42 -0800, Robert displayrd his ignorance fgor all
to admire.
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Veneration, ie. a display of respect was being done during the lives of
mary and the apostles, all saints. They are alive and with Christ and the
reason for respect does not cease at death.
Wrong, and any pagan would laugh at your usage of "veneration", they
recognize it as worship, just like when they venerate their gods.
venerate (v.) Look up venerate at Dictionary.com
1620s, back-formation from veneration, or else from Latin veneratus, past
participle of venerari "to reverence, worship." Related: Venerated;
venerating.
reverence (v.) Look up reverence at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "treat with respect, honor; venerate, pay pious homage to;
esteem, value; bow to (someone); do honor to," from reverence (n.).
Related: Reverenced; reverencing.
Post by Robert
You venerate false images.
You may want to go to your room to hide.


Veneration could be for the street beggar that tried to find work. It is a
mark of respect. Not to worry though, you are not likely to have it
applied to you.


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
Patrick
2017-01-11 14:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
any pagan would laugh at your usage of "veneration", they
recognize it as worship, just like when they venerate their gods.
You really need to stop hanging with your pagan friends.
They obviously are as stupid as you are.

asherah
2017-01-11 12:14:47 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:49:27 -0800, Robert shared his confusion with, well
himself I suppose.
--
Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
asherah
2017-01-11 12:24:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:14:21 -0800, Robert flushed


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 20:03:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:55:02 -0800, Robert played professional loser,
still. snip

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
duke
2017-01-10 12:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..
Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Post by Robert
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Yes, Jesus is fully man and fully God. But no man saw anything but man.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Robert
2017-01-10 17:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..
Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.

Jesus is God, he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again, become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation. It
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him. Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.

Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
Post by duke
Post by Robert
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Yes, Jesus is fully man and fully God. But no man saw anything but man.
Then why did Thomas say with amazement, My Lord and my God?

Why did Jesus make a clear distinction between those that saw him
then, and believed, meaning throughout his ministry, and us in this
day who believe by faith? They saw, and we didn't with our physical
eyes.

Plus, according to your doctrine of Trinity, if you saw one, you saw
them all.
Post by duke
the dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Patrick
2017-01-10 19:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
In the Old testament, Jesus had not yet been born.
Jesus was not active yet.
Post by Robert
Jesus is God,
Excellent.
Perhaps you are trying to get on the same page as all Christians.
Post by Robert
he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again,
That is not the reason why.
But then, you may go ahead and make up more stuff if you like.
Post by Robert
become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation.
Yet, you do not consider the Holy Spirit to be Divinity.
Post by Robert
It
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him.
Do you feel you are just like Jesus now?
Post by Robert
Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.
Perhaps you could share this reference with us.
Post by Robert
Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
God is trying to teach me?
Like he teaches you?
Robert
2017-01-10 20:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
In the Old testament, Jesus had not yet been born.
Jesus was not active yet.
Joh_8:58  Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you,
before Abraham was born, I AM.

Do you dispute the scripture given?
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Jesus is God,
Excellent.
Perhaps you are trying to get on the same page as all Christians.
Not at all, many Christians of today are not believers.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again,
That is not the reason why.
But then, you may go ahead and make up more stuff if you like.
You argue, but have no other answer.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation.
Yet, you do not consider the Holy Spirit to be Divinity.
That is a false accusation, and stupid as well.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
It
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him.
Do you feel you are just like Jesus now?
I know only what the Bible says. Do you feel like a human?
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.
Perhaps you could share this reference with us.
1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
God is trying to teach me?
Like he teaches you?
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come.
Patrick
2017-01-10 22:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
In the Old testament, Jesus had not yet been born.
Jesus was not active yet.
Joh_8:58  Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you,
before Abraham was born, I AM.
Yes.
Did you read my words?
Jesus was not active yet.
There is no mention of Jesus in the old testament except that a
messiah was to be born of the house of David. Jesus was not active
yet.
Post by Robert
Do you dispute the scripture given?
Nope.
Did you read my words?
Jesus was not active yet.
There is no mention of Jesus in the old testament except that a
messiah was to be born of the house of David. Jesus was not active
yet.
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Jesus is God,
Excellent.
Perhaps you are trying to get on the same page as all Christians.
Not at all, many Christians of today are not believers.
Then they are not true Christians.
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
Do you believe that Jesus is the second Person of God, the Son of God,
the Messiah? Were you ever baptised? When?
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again,
That is not the reason why.
But then, you may go ahead and make up more stuff if you like.
You argue, but have no other answer.
That is because I don't understand the question.
Do you have a question?
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation.
Yet, you do not consider the Holy Spirit to be Divinity.
That is a false accusation, and stupid as well.
Are you saying that you believe in the Trinity?
Please be specific.
And yes, I do believe in the Trinity.
I am a Christian.
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
It
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him.
Do you feel you are just like Jesus now?
I know only what the Bible says. Do you feel like a human?
I am a human.
Do you feel you are just like Jesus now?
Would you care to explain your answer?
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.
Perhaps you could share this reference with us.
1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
.17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in
the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

+ The entire reference is pertaining to God's love for us.
I have no idea what you are reading into this.
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
God is trying to teach me?
Like he teaches you?
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come.
13 - Not speak of Himself .... Some are tempted to believe what they
think the "spirit" is telling them, holding that impression above the
Scriptures. This is evidence that the communication is not from the
Holy Spirit. This temptation includes having no desire to consult the
Bible or in believing that it's not for us today. The true Holy Spirit
is only a communicator of the truth of Christ and the Scriptures. He
does not speak on His own authority.

+ This does not bolster your point.
God is trying to teach me?
Like he teaches you?
Robert
2017-01-11 01:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
In the Old testament, Jesus had not yet been born.
Jesus was not active yet.
Joh_8:58  Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you,
before Abraham was born, I AM.
Yes.
Did you read my words?
Jesus was not active yet.
There is no mention of Jesus in the old testament except that a
messiah was to be born of the house of David. Jesus was not active
yet.
He was active,
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.

He was also noted as the "Lamb of God"

But you are correct in that he was not born as man yet.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Do you dispute the scripture given?
Nope.
Did you read my words?
Jesus was not active yet.
There is no mention of Jesus in the old testament except that a
messiah was to be born of the house of David. Jesus was not active
yet.
Jesus was mentioned in Isaiah.
Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold,
the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear
a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us]

In the book of the Psalms the death of Jesus was described.
Jesus was active alright but not by that name, or his human body.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Jesus is God,
Excellent.
Perhaps you are trying to get on the same page as all Christians.
Not at all, many Christians of today are not believers.
Then they are not true Christians.
Oh they consider themselves Christian, they belong to the RCC and "do
all the right things accord to the RCC, but if they are not born again
they are not Christian.
Post by Patrick
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
I call myself a born again believer.
Post by Patrick
Do you believe that Jesus is the second Person of God, the Son of God,
the Messiah? Were you ever baptised? When?
I have already answered those questions to you numerous times, nothing
has changed.

There is no second person of God, if as you believe in the trinity
they are all equal and the same.

Is Jesus a separate person? If God the Father sits on one throne, and
Jesus on another, then what do you think?
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again,
That is not the reason why.
But then, you may go ahead and make up more stuff if you like.
You argue, but have no other answer.
That is because I don't understand the question.
Do you have a question?
You asked the question, I gave the answer and you had no other answer,
just argument.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation.
Yet, you do not consider the Holy Spirit to be Divinity.
That is a false accusation, and stupid as well.
Are you saying that you believe in the Trinity?
Please be specific.
And yes, I do believe in the Trinity.
I am a Christian.
I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I put the faith that God
gave me, into his son. Not into a terminology of man, nor a doctrine
of man.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
It
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him.
Do you feel you are just like Jesus now?
I know only what the Bible says. Do you feel like a human?
I am a human.
But do you "feel" like one?
Post by Patrick
Do you feel you are just like Jesus now?
Would you care to explain your answer?
Per the scripture I gave you I am what I am. Has nothing to do with
feelings. I accept it by faith.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.
Perhaps you could share this reference with us.
1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
.17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in
the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
+ The entire reference is pertaining to God's love for us.
I have no idea what you are reading into this.
That is for sure. You cannot understand at this point what I and many
others do, since the spirit of God does not dwell in you. (as you have
admitted. I am not knocking you on it, but you do need him.)
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
God is trying to teach me?
Like he teaches you?
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come.
13 - Not speak of Himself .... Some are tempted to believe what they
think the "spirit" is telling them, holding that impression above the
Scriptures. This is evidence that the communication is not from the
Holy Spirit. This temptation includes having no desire to consult the
Bible or in believing that it's not for us today. The true Holy Spirit
is only a communicator of the truth of Christ and the Scriptures. He
does not speak on His own authority.
Absolutely correct, he does not speak of himself.
1Jn 4:1  BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test)
the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false
prophets have gone forth into the world.

You may not have given it much thought, but there is the world that is
real to our five senses, and there is a world that is spiritually
real. The spiritual world is forever, and the true reality, our normal
reality is temporal, everything in it dies.

When our spirit is born again, it is made alive unto God, and also is
our eternal spirit that will dwell with him. If we, via the renewing
of our mind, learn to listen and speak to God, then we will become
spiritually aware, able to cast out spirits and so on. We would also
act out of love, and not some pretense of love, but actual love.

If we draw near to God we will begin to also hear his voice, just like
Jesus said, My sheep here my voice. Through experience we will also
know His voice, and so on. there is so much more than this but most
are fearful of anything spiritual and Satan loves it that way.
Post by Patrick
+ This does not bolster your point.
God is trying to teach me?
Like he teaches you?
He is trying to teach you, reach you by many means. He reaches to you,
were you are at, not where I am at.
astarte
2017-01-11 12:13:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:54:30 -0800, Robert trying for a record on ignorance
of how to use usenet, got 229 lines removed for saying nothing worth
reading. I'm sure he thinks it is an epic admired by all. Someone want to
tell him.

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
asherah
2017-01-11 12:17:36 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:25:11 -0800, Robert snip, more of his interpolation.

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 20:05:12 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 09:15:15 -0800, Robert is running another name change
to say noting of interest, snip

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
d***@gmail.com
2017-01-10 23:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..
Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
I think that Duke was referring to God in His true form, not His earthly form.

But yet a problem with this still exists BECAUSE of the transformation of Christ on the mountain with two disciples present.
Post by Robert
Jesus is God, he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again, become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation. It
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him. Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.
Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
Post by duke
Post by Robert
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Yes, Jesus is fully man and fully God. But no man saw anything but man.
Then why did Thomas say with amazement, My Lord and my God?
Why did Jesus make a clear distinction between those that saw him
then, and believed, meaning throughout his ministry, and us in this
day who believe by faith? They saw, and we didn't with our physical
eyes.
Plus, according to your doctrine of Trinity, if you saw one, you saw
them all.
Post by duke
the dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
2017-01-11 12:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18  No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father? 
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26  Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you! 
Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe! 
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
JW's and others are following idols, false images, as part of their
doctrines, their Jesus is not the Jesus that is spoken of in the words
of John. A fact hardly disputed by James when he says he follows a
"Jesus" that the Christians do not. And He is right, he follows a
false image, one he calls Jesus, but knows not. Same with some others
here.
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..
Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
I think that Duke was referring to God in His true form, not His earthly form.
But yet a problem with this still exists BECAUSE of the transformation of Christ on the mountain with two disciples present.
The Transfiguration
It is in this context of confusion among the disciples that we read the
transfiguration story. Six days went by after Peter's confrontation with Jesus,
apparently uneventful but no doubt filled with confusion on the part of the
disciples. Then Jesus took Peter, James, and John up "to a high mountain" where
they witnessed a most wonderful sight. Jesus was glorified before their eyes.
His body took on a different appearance (Matt. 17:2). Then there appeared Moses
and Elijah. When we think about it, these two characters fit perfectly in this
scene. Moses was the great lawgiver in Israelite history, but he was also the
first of God's great prophets (cf. Deut 18:14ff). Elijah was a great prophet
too. Furthermore, both of them saw an appearance of God in their lifetimes
(Moses: Exod 33:17ff; Elijah: 1 Kings 19:9ff), and both of these occurred on a
mountain (Mt. Sinai). Both of them, like Jesus, had performed mighty works in
the name of the Lord God of Israel, and both had experienced, to some degree,
the rejection of their own people. These two characters have symbolic
significance as well. Together they represent the Law and the Prophets, both of
which pointed to Jesus (cf. Rom. 3:21).

Then there was the heavenly voice speaking the same words that were heard at
Jesus' baptism (Matt. 3:17). It is important to note that the heavenly voice
sounded while Peter was suggesting the building of three tents (no doubt as
"shrines") for Jesus and the other two figures. It seems that Peter thought the
kingdom could be established right there and then. Just a few days earlier he
had heard Jesus say that some of them would live to see it (Matt.16:28), and no
doubt he assumed this was it. But whereas Peter wanted to give Jesus, Moses, and
Elijah equal treatment, the divine voice corrects him. The voice from heaven
singled out Jesus as the new and sole source of authority. Again, Peter stood
corrected. Then, just about as quickly as it had happened, it was over (Matt.
17:7f).


the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
2017-01-11 12:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
Remember, there was no Christian water baptism until after the cross. That's
how we join with Jess in his death. You're quoting an event within hours of his
resurrection.
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by duke
They saw flesh only. The never saw divinity, nor knew of his divinity until
after he ascended to the Father..
Philippians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own
advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
the dukester, American-American
Earl, while the verses you quote from Philippians are very true, they
are not on topic, and they also do not dispute what Jesus said, when
he said you have seen me, you see the Father.
Give it a break, repete. Scripture says NO man has seen God. Scripture says
"he made himself nothing". End of story. Jesus said "follow me", and no man
would even try is the thought for a second that he was trying to follow
divinity.
Well, Earl, the plain and simple fact is that Jesus said, if you have
seen me you have seen God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? All I did was
quote HIS words.
No, you are thinking physical ONLY. I'm speaking spiritual where Jesus is truly
God but never seen (physical) by man as God.
Post by Robert
Jesus is God, he was divinity and is. And now you have just a peak at
the truth, you are absolutely right in that no man can follow
divinity, that is why mankind by faith must be born again,
You openly reject most of the teachings of Jesus. You are not born again
because you have never been baptized. You reject the huge majority of the
teachings of Jeuss leaving you in high doubt of being born agian.
Post by Robert
become a
new creature in Christ Jesus, it is also why the Holy Spirit takes up
residence within our spirit, and seals the spirit unto salvation.
In baptism.
Post by Robert
is why mankind, once born again is empowered with the power of God via
the Holy Spirit, plus via our spirits our minds now become renewed in
the things of God. and the sum total of this gives us the reality of
being just like Him. Scripture says, as Jesus Christ is, so are we IN
THIS WORLD.
Yes, you cannot do it by yourself, and that is what God has been
trying to teach and show you. Not by works lest any man boast.
And Jesus taught us that the OT works of the law are no more. But we MUST live
with deeds of love or our faith is dead.
Post by Robert
Post by duke
Post by Robert
In fact, to use one of your arguments regarding God being one, Jesus
was born as God/man. His name meaning God with us.
You dispute with God and his word with your words and actions. Any
particular reason for it?
Yes, Jesus is fully man and fully God. But no man saw anything but man.
Then why did Thomas say with amazement, My Lord and my God?
He had just risen form the dead and he needed to be assured by placing his hands
on the wounds of Jesus. In life, there are many lords but only one God. Don't
read your own agenda into scripture.
Post by Robert
Why did Jesus make a clear distinction between those that saw him
then, and believed, meaning throughout his ministry, and us in this
day who believe by faith? They saw, and we didn't with our physical
eyes.
Believed what. He had just died a miserable death on the cross?
Post by Robert
Plus, according to your doctrine of Trinity, if you saw one, you saw
them all.
The ONLY thing any man has ever seen is God become flesh. Never the Father, the
divine Son or the Holy Spirit. Don't you get it yet that Jesus was born of
flesh in his human mother and the "overshadowing of the Holy Spirit" in his
divinity?

God is one in three equal but separate persons.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
unknown
2017-01-09 17:27:01 UTC
Permalink
With trusty digital divination meter in hand, robert holds forth:

Snip
Post by Robert
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
What a hoot, the above blurb about the nature of Christ would be embraced
by a jw. They too distort the person of Christ as not fully God and fully
man, He was just a "representative" of God.
snip
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.

Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.

snip

Of course being fully God and fully man in one undivided nature what of she
who bore Him in her womb? Could she be properly said to be the "God
bearer" to add support to His "fully both undivided" nature?

Unlike the father as God who is spirit, being also fulll man in Christ's
physicl presence, would a graphical representation of the son evoke the "no
graven image" of God?

These were questions that came up in the early years of the church. Like
in Actts, they met in council to decide such matters of faith and
practice.
Robert
2017-01-09 20:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?

Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
astarte
2017-01-09 20:52:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:13:46 -0800, Robert snip


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
unknown
2017-01-09 21:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.

The next declaration from him "my lord and God".

Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His death caused
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.

Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".

So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
Robert
2017-01-09 22:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.
The next declaration from him "my lord and God".
Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His death caused
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.
Thomas was also a disciple, His divinity was already understood by
some as revealed by the Holy Spirit. The other disciples had already
seen Jesus and what he doubted is what they told him. It was not until
8 days later that He saw Jesus who came right through the walls Where
they were. Why you want to keep reiterating this point is beyond me,
are you having problems with belief.
Post by unknown
Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".
So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
Had you read the scripture I posted in the first place you would have
had an answer to all of this. I do not go by religion or traditions of
men.
unknown
2017-01-09 23:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.
The next declaration from him "my lord and God".
Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His
death caused
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.
Thomas was also a disciple, His divinity was already understood by
some as revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Pentecost and the promised SH was then a future event. He believed because
of the empty tomb and the physical evidence of His body as risen Christ.
Post by Robert
..The other disciples had already
seen Jesus and what he doubted is what they told him. It was not until
8 days later that He saw Jesus who came right through the walls Where
they were. Why you want to keep reiterating this point is beyond me,
ar
All that quite irrelevant to the point of Thomases renewed faith in His
divinity, "my lord and my God". God and man undivided..
you having problems with belief.


No.
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".
So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
Had you read the scripture I posted in the first place you would have
had an answer to all of this. I do not go by religion or traditions of
men.
I did read it, Christ as fully God and fully man undivided confirmed in the
example of Thomas; "my lord and my God".

So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?

Every theory now proposed these 2000 years later is of rligion, even if
only the lone ranger flavor; and exactly invented of man.

The unbroken 2000 year witness; beginning in scripture benchmark, not the
confused mumblings of a lone ranger bible reader with a digital divination
meter with its heavenly wifi connnection.
Robert
2017-01-10 01:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.
The next declaration from him "my lord and God".
Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His
death caused
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.
Thomas was also a disciple, His divinity was already understood by
some as revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Pentecost and the promised SH was then a future event. He believed because
of the empty tomb and the physical evidence of His body as risen Christ.
Whatever SH is. You sure do a poor job of hacking up posts, it also
shows your lack of understanding.

Mat 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God. 
Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou,
Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but
my Father which is in heaven.

Well before the death of Christ.

And before the birth of Christ, the promise, then the realization of
the promise spoken of here.

Luk 2:26  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he
should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 
Luk 2:27  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the
parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of
the law, 
Luk 2:28  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 
Luk 2:29  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace,
according to thy word: 
Luk 2:30  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 
Luk 2:31  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 

Now Thomas believed per the scriptures posted, then deleted by you,...

Joh 20:25  The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen
the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the
print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and
thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 
...............
Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed. 

See what you miss by not reading?
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
..The other disciples had already
seen Jesus and what he doubted is what they told him. It was not until
8 days later that He saw Jesus who came right through the walls Where
they were. Why you want to keep reiterating this point is beyond me,
ar
All that quite irrelevant to the point of Thomases renewed faith in His
divinity, "my lord and my God". God and man undivided..
you having problems with belief.
No.
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".
So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
Had you read the scripture I posted in the first place you would have
had an answer to all of this. I do not go by religion or traditions of
men.
I did read it, Christ as fully God and fully man undivided confirmed in the
example of Thomas; "my lord and my God".
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
I was speaking of the original post I made, made up mostly of
scripture, and you snipped virtually all of it. Read that, I made it
clear that is what I believed.
Post by unknown
Every theory now proposed these 2000 years later is of rligion, even if
only the lone ranger flavor; and exactly invented of man.
The unbroken 2000 year witness; beginning in scripture benchmark, not the
confused mumblings of a lone ranger bible reader with a digital divination
meter with its heavenly wifi connnection.
Go to my original post, my answer is there, unchanged.

Obviously you are clueless as to what constitutes religion, and what
the difference is between religion and the Good News.

Sadly your mocking ways will come back to haunt you.

Now go back to the original post, scripture there will show you what I
believe.
unknown
2017-01-10 01:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Re: 10's of 1,000's, perhaps 100's of 1,000,s Saw God!
Reply to: Robert
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 17:39:00 -0800
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
alt.bible,
alt.christnet.christianlife,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Followup to: newsgroups
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.
The next declaration from him "my lord and God".
Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His
death caused
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.
Thomas was also a disciple, His divinity was already understood by
some as revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Pentecost and the promised SH was then a future event. He believed because
of the empty tomb and the physical evidence of His body as risen Christ.
Whatever SH is. You sure do a poor job of hacking up posts, it also
shows your lack of understanding.
Mat 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God. 
Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou,
Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but
my Father which is in heaven.
Well before the death of Christ.
And before the birth of Christ, the promise, then the realization of
the promise spoken of here.
Luk 2:26  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he
should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 
Luk 2:27  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the
parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of
the law, 
Luk 2:28  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 
Luk 2:29  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace,
according to thy word: 
Luk 2:30  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 
Luk 2:31  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 
Now Thomas believed per the scriptures posted, then deleted by you,...
Joh 20:25  The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen
the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the
print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and
thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 
...............
Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed. 
See what you miss by not reading?
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
..The other disciples had already
seen Jesus and what he doubted is what they told him. It was not until
8 days later that He saw Jesus who came right through the walls Where
they were. Why you want to keep reiterating this point is beyond me,
ar
All that quite irrelevant to the point of Thomases renewed faith in His
divinity, "my lord and my God". God and man undivided..
you having problems with belief.
No.
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".
So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
Had you read the scripture I posted in the first place you would have
had an answer to all of this. I do not go by religion or traditions of
men.
I did read it, Christ as fully God and fully man undivided confirmed in the
example of Thomas; "my lord and my God".
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
I was speaking of the original post I made, made up mostly of
scripture, and you snipped virtually all of it. Read that, I made it
clear that is what I believed.
Went back, nothing there to answer the above question but the Thomas "my
lord and my God" confirmmation of the fully God and fully man undivided
nature of Christ.

So the question stands unanswered. What might be "believed" about some
subsidiary question is not on the table.

A politician often answers some other question when the one before him is
too touching and revealing.
Robert
2017-01-10 03:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Re: 10's of 1,000's, perhaps 100's of 1,000,s Saw God!
Reply to: Robert
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 17:39:00 -0800
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
alt.bible,
alt.christnet.christianlife,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Followup to: newsgroups
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.
The next declaration from him "my lord and God".
Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His
death caused
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.
Thomas was also a disciple, His divinity was already understood by
some as revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Pentecost and the promised SH was then a future event. He believed because
of the empty tomb and the physical evidence of His body as risen Christ.
Whatever SH is. You sure do a poor job of hacking up posts, it also
shows your lack of understanding.
Mat 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God. 
Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou,
Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but
my Father which is in heaven.
Well before the death of Christ.
And before the birth of Christ, the promise, then the realization of
the promise spoken of here.
Luk 2:26  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he
should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 
Luk 2:27  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the
parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of
the law, 
Luk 2:28  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 
Luk 2:29  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace,
according to thy word: 
Luk 2:30  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 
Luk 2:31  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 
Now Thomas believed per the scriptures posted, then deleted by you,...
Joh 20:25  The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen
the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the
print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and
thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 
...............
Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed. 
See what you miss by not reading?
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
..The other disciples had already
seen Jesus and what he doubted is what they told him. It was not until
8 days later that He saw Jesus who came right through the walls Where
they were. Why you want to keep reiterating this point is beyond me,
ar
All that quite irrelevant to the point of Thomases renewed faith in His
divinity, "my lord and my God". God and man undivided..
you having problems with belief.
No.
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".
So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
Had you read the scripture I posted in the first place you would have
had an answer to all of this. I do not go by religion or traditions of
men.
I did read it, Christ as fully God and fully man undivided confirmed in the
example of Thomas; "my lord and my God".
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
I was speaking of the original post I made, made up mostly of
scripture, and you snipped virtually all of it. Read that, I made it
clear that is what I believed.
Went back, nothing there to answer the above question but the Thomas "my
lord and my God" confirmmation of the fully God and fully man undivided
nature of Christ.
Well, first off, the resurrected Christ was not man, he was a
bloodless being with holes in his body. His resurrected body was a
redeemed body.
Post by unknown
So the question stands unanswered. What might be "believed" about some
subsidiary question is not on the table.
Jesus said, you see me, you see the Father.
John 14:9; Matt 16:16
Post by unknown
A politician often answers some other question when the one before him is
too touching and revealing.
A politician often asks a question for obfuscation, or as a setup to
something not related.
astarte
2017-01-10 14:29:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 19:24:49 -0800, Robert snip
Post by Robert
A politician often asks a question for obfuscation, or as a setup to
something not related.
So, that's where you learned how to do your dance.

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
unknown
2017-01-10 16:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
Robert
2017-01-10 17:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
I gave you the answer, with a pointer so that you could not miss it.

All you are showing me is that you purposely ignore it.
unknown
2017-01-10 17:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
I gave you the answer, with a pointer so that you could not miss it.
All you are showing me is that you purposely ignore it.
The "the father and I are one" is part of the scripture support for
trinity,ie. one God 3 persons.

It is support for Christ being fully God and fully man undivided.

It does not support the jw like statement about Christ offered previously
in this thread as "repsentative" etc. from the divine or any such notion.

Noting that the reference is "Jesus" not "christ" almost always when such
jw like theory is suggested. This leaves us as before:

Who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided?
astarte
2017-01-10 20:12:52 UTC
Permalink
On 10 Jan 2017 17:59:38 GMT, Servant wrote:
snip
Post by unknown
Who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided?
Technically, using the term as understood by the jews, neither.
Ref: Pg 192-199. Might not be interesting to others, for it is not in
total agreement with the xian use of the title.
Robert
2017-01-10 22:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
I gave you the answer, with a pointer so that you could not miss it.
All you are showing me is that you purposely ignore it.
The "the father and I are one" is part of the scripture support for
trinity,ie. one God 3 persons.
There are two persons mentioned there, not three, and no use of the
word trinity any place in the Bible.
Post by unknown
It is support for Christ being fully God and fully man undivided.
Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go
unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Divided in space and position. Yet Jesus is God and always was.
Post by unknown
It does not support the jw like statement about Christ offered previously
in this thread as "repsentative" etc. from the divine or any such notion.
Jesus Represented his Father. Are you going to deny that? Jesus only
did as His father wanted him to do? Do you deny that?
Jesus asked his Father, Mar 14:36  And he said, Abba, Father, all
things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me:
nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."

He fully knew what he was about to go through, and the grievous pain
and suffering he desired not.
Post by unknown
Noting that the reference is "Jesus" not "christ" almost always when such
Ridiculous. You have an unsupported agenda, spit it out Fool. Say what
it is you really mean.
Post by unknown
Who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided?
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
How did his Father forsake him? Why?

Luk 9:20  He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter
answering said, The Christ of God.

Luk 2:26  And it had been divinely revealed (communicated) to him by
the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the
Lord's Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)

Lord's Christ? God's Messiah?

Luk 23:35  And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with
them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he
be Christ, the chosen of God. 

Christ, the chosen of God?

I can go on and on with this, from scripture.

John 1:1-14 The Word, the begotten of the Father, the Light of the
world. Only those that receive him have to the power to become the
sons of God.
unknown
2017-01-10 23:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
I gave you the answer, with a pointer so that you could not miss it.
All you are showing me is that you purposely ignore it.
The "the father and I are one" is part of the scripture support for
trinity,ie. one God 3 persons.
There are two persons mentioned there, not three, and no use of the
word trinity any place in the Bible.
That llogic shoots itself in the foot. Bible not in bible either. Bible
alone not anywhere in bible for sure.

Any number of doctrines/practices not in bible, whre please "slain in
spirit" or even some reason to support the doctrine/practice?

Smile, that line of interpretation would earn a failing mark in bible
school 101. It is an argument from silence.

Scripture does speak of the relationship of father/son to HS elsewhere.

Scripture has the three persons appearing at the same event. Poof goes any
oneness pentecostalist "manistations" of the same divine person.
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
It
is support for Christ
being fully God and fully man undivided.
Post by Robert
Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go
unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Divided in space and position. Yet Jesus is God and always was.
Post by unknown
It does not support the jw like statement about Christ offered previously
in this thread as "repsentative" etc. from the divine or any such notion.
Jesus Represented his Father. Are you going to deny that? Jesus only
did as His father wanted him to do? Do you deny that?
Jesus asked his Father, Mar 14:36  And he said, Abba, Father, all
nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."
He fully knew what he was about to go through, and the grievous pain
and suffering he desired not.
Post by unknown
Noting that the reference is "Jesus" not "christ" almost always when such
Ridiculous. You have an unsupported agenda, spit it out Fool. Say what
it is you really mean.
Post by unknown
Who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided?
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
How did his Father forsake him? Why?
Luk 9:20  He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter
answering said, The Christ of God.
Luk 2:26  And it had been divinely revealed (communicated) to him by
the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the
Lord's Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)
Lord's Christ? God's Messiah?
Luk 23:35  And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with
them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he
be Christ, the chosen of God. 
Christ, the chosen of God?
I can go on and on with this, from scripture.
John 1:1-14 The Word, the begotten of the Father, the Light of the
world. Only those that receive him have to the power to become the
sons of God.
Yup, father and son, two seperate persons of one divine being; the HS the
3rd.

Twice Christ as a physical man said He was also God. The jews present
sought to stone Him for this claim.

Now tell us about the first section of John and the "word becoming flesh
and the flesh was God".

Then when Christ as that word/flesh prayed to the father, two persons, He
must have been praying to himself?

And none of the above scripture bits distract from Christ being fully God
and fully man undivided, they butress it in fact.

So we have our answer, Christ was fully God and fully man undivided.
Patrick
2017-01-11 01:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
I gave you the answer, with a pointer so that you could not miss it.
All you are showing me is that you purposely ignore it.
The "the father and I are one" is part of the scripture support for
trinity,ie. one God 3 persons.
There are two persons mentioned there, not three, and no use of the
word trinity any place in the Bible.
No one is arguing with you here.
And we have agreed with this dozens of times.....
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
It is support for Christ being fully God and fully man undivided.
Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go
unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
This was Jesus (the man) speaking of God, the father.
Post by Robert
Divided in space and position. Yet Jesus is God and always was.
Good to hear you say that.
Robert
2017-01-11 08:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
So the question stands, who was Christ ; was He fully God and fully man
undivided or is there another theory afoot?
We can addd, if another theory what is it?
I gave you the answer, with a pointer so that you could not miss it.
All you are showing me is that you purposely ignore it.
The "the father and I are one" is part of the scripture support for
trinity,ie. one God 3 persons.
There are two persons mentioned there, not three, and no use of the
word trinity any place in the Bible.
No one is arguing with you here.
And we have agreed with this dozens of times.....
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
It is support for Christ being fully God and fully man undivided.
Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go
unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
This was Jesus (the man) speaking of God, the father. **
No, Jesus, "God with us", was speaking to men about his relationship
with his father.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Divided in space and position. Yet Jesus is God and always was.
Good to hear you say that.
Yet you denied it in the circumstances above. **
astarte
2017-01-11 12:05:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:21:19 -0800, Robert snip


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 20:06:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 09:55:08 -0800, Robert accused others of his better
habits. snip

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 14:28:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 17:39:00 -0800, Robert snip,
Post by Robert
Now go back to the original post, scripture there will show you what I
believe.
Which of course according to you, is binding on everyone else. Except it
isn't.


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 00:28:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 14:54:17 -0800, Robert pouted because someone didn't
follow his mistake. Snip
--
Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 00:32:00 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 14:54:17 -0800, Robert snip, just more conceit.

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
pyotr filipivich
2017-01-10 17:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Servant on 09 Jan 2017 21:24:47 GMT typed in
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
Thomas doubted a risen Christ. When invited to see the marks and place his
hand in His side he believedd.
The next declaration from him "my lord and God".
Christ had already revealed His divinity to the apostles. His death caused
grave doubts among them, the physical evidence changed the mind of a
doubting Thomas.
Any theory making of Christ less then fully God and fully man undivided has
Thomas to deal with. One small bit and all such theories go "poof".
So, who was Christ? Was He fully God and fully man undivided or is there
another theory afoot? One might consult the beginning of John.
It is interesting, that in the first centuries, the Church had to
"prove" that Jesus was human. The idea that he could be a god was
easily acceptable in the culture around them.
Now, the problem is proving that he's God. Because such a notion
doesn't fit the paradigm of the culture around us.
--
pyotr
After the war two Army Chaplains were mustering out. The one said to
the other "Chaplain, it has been a real pleasure serving God with you.
You in your way, and I in His."
Patrick
2017-01-09 22:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
What was He then?
Robert
2017-01-10 03:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
What was He then?
Ask him not me, wombs"?
duke
2017-01-10 12:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
What was He then?
Ask him not me, wombs"?
Silly boy. You know, I know, the world knows that he mistyped a word. Quit
playing like a child.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Robert
2017-01-10 16:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
What was He then?
Ask him not me, wombs"?
Silly boy. You know, I know, the world knows that he mistyped a word. Quit
playing like a child.
the dukester, American-American
Since when does a man have a womb, let alone two?

and you call me a child? And support the ignorance of Patsy at the
same time? Don't they have sex education in RC schools? Or do the
priests do that one on one? <smirk>

Seriously Duke, you should think before you react.
astarte
2017-01-10 16:46:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:39:59 -0800, Robert nothing new, snip


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 14:29:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 19:27:02 -0800, Robert wrote:snip



Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
duke
2017-01-10 12:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
But not until after the ascension of Jesus to the Father that the new Christians
came to understand what they had participated in.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Robert
2017-01-10 16:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Robert
Post by unknown
Post by Robert
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God! 
Oops, there goes the jw and robert word dance in one stroke, sorry bub.
Thomas addressed He who was fully God and fully man in the confirmation
of His wombs.
His "Wombs"?
Fool, you should have read the scriptures provided. What Thomas
finally recognized is what Jesus was all along, and his words
testified of that.
But not until after the ascension of Jesus to the Father that the new Christians
came to understand what they had participated in.
the dukester, American-American
I can understand why you would think that, and to an extent it is
true, but the simple fact is that the disciples were performing
miracles, casting out demons, and so on, solely based on the words and
authorization of Jesus Christ. They were amazed and shocked at the
power they had from the very beginning of His ministry, plus some
understood because of what the holy spirit revealed to them, as Jesus
said. Yes, they had much to learn, even so.
Patrick
2017-01-10 19:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
I can understand why you would think that, and to an extent it is
true, but the simple fact is that the disciples were performing
miracles, casting out demons, and so on, solely based on the words and
authorization of Jesus Christ. They were amazed and shocked at the
power they had from the very beginning of His ministry,
+ Did the disciples have the power of miracles from the beginning of
Jesus' ministry?
Post by Robert
plus some
understood because of what the holy spirit revealed to them, as Jesus
said. Yes, they had much to learn, even so.
Robert
2017-01-10 20:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
I can understand why you would think that, and to an extent it is
true, but the simple fact is that the disciples were performing
miracles, casting out demons, and so on, solely based on the words and
authorization of Jesus Christ. They were amazed and shocked at the
power they had from the very beginning of His ministry,
+ Did the disciples have the power of miracles from the beginning of
Jesus' ministry?
Very soon after.

Luk 9:1  THEN JESUS called together the Twelve [apostles] and gave
them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases, 
Luk 9:2  And He sent them out to announce and preach the kingdom of
God and to bring healing.

[....

Luk 10:1  NOW AFTER this the Lord chose and appointed seventy others
and sent them out ahead of Him, two by two, into every town and place
where He Himself was about to come (visit). 

Luk 10:17  The seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the
demons are subject to us in Your name! 
Luk 10:18  And He said to them, I saw Satan falling like a lightning
[flash] from heaven. 
Luk 10:19  Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample
upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and
ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing
shall in any way harm you. 
Luk 10:20  Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits are
subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
plus some
understood because of what the holy spirit revealed to them, as Jesus
said. Yes, they had much to learn, even so.
astarte
2017-01-10 20:17:28 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:11:58 -0800, Robert had an orgasm? Oh well, snip
--
Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
Patrick
2017-01-10 22:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
I can understand why you would think that, and to an extent it is
true, but the simple fact is that the disciples were performing
miracles, casting out demons, and so on, solely based on the words and
authorization of Jesus Christ. They were amazed and shocked at the
power they had from the very beginning of His ministry,
+ Did the disciples have the power of miracles from the beginning of
Jesus' ministry?
Very soon after.
But not at the beginning....
Post by Robert
Luk 9:1  THEN JESUS called together the Twelve [apostles] and gave
them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases, 
Luk 9:2  And He sent them out to announce and preach the kingdom of
God and to bring healing.
This was on the trip to Galilee.
Jesus was preparing his disciple to spread the Good News after His
death.
Robert
2017-01-11 02:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
I can understand why you would think that, and to an extent it is
true, but the simple fact is that the disciples were performing
miracles, casting out demons, and so on, solely based on the words and
authorization of Jesus Christ. They were amazed and shocked at the
power they had from the very beginning of His ministry,
+ Did the disciples have the power of miracles from the beginning of
Jesus' ministry?
Very soon after.
But not at the beginning....
Correct.
Post by Patrick
Post by Robert
Luk 9:1  THEN JESUS called together the Twelve [apostles] and gave
them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases, 
Luk 9:2  And He sent them out to announce and preach the kingdom of
God and to bring healing.
This was on the trip to Galilee.
Jesus was preparing his disciple to spread the Good News after His
death.
Actually he was preparing them to spread the Good News, then, and they
were. But the power to operate in the spirit was via an anointing, not
via the baptism of the holy spirit as on the day of Pentecost.

The Good News included healing's and deliverance's and miracles
without having to earn anything. Given Freely, by Grace and Mercy.
Jesus as God forgiving sins. No one had to earn even a thin dime for
any of it.
Given freely out of Love.
astarte
2017-01-11 12:11:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:02:47 -0800, Robert snip posturing

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
asherah
2017-01-11 12:27:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:02:47 -0800, Robert flush gag material

Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
astarte
2017-01-10 20:02:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:50:49 -0800, Robert wrote from la la land. snip


Are you going to answer walksalone's question. You know, this one.


Now, where is that message ID where you claim I called you a liar?

"Aristotle was once asked what those who tell lies gain by it. Said he,
"That when they speak truth they are not believed."
Jan Tagmier
2017-01-09 21:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied.
Joh 14:9 Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father?
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26 Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you!
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe!
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
So you believe that Matthew 3:11 make water baptism unecessary..I
would agree with you that in some cases it would not be required
like that of the thief on the cross, or new believers that are as
yet not a member of a church some where, but in the end don't you
also believe that this would be solely up to the discretion of God ?
Patrick
2017-01-09 22:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Tagmier
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied.
Joh 14:9 Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father?
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26 Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you!
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe!
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
So you believe that Matthew 3:11 make water baptism unecessary..I
would agree with you that in some cases it would not be required
like that of the thief on the cross, or new believers that are as
yet not a member of a church some where, but in the end don't you
also believe that this would be solely up to the discretion of God ?
Good answer.
Jan Tagmier
2017-01-10 13:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by Jan Tagmier
Post by Robert
Many have read this, yet not seen it.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Here is how the Greek to English is clarified;
Joh 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son,
or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate
presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and
brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He
has made Him known]. (AMP)
Jesus, "He" has declared Him, made him known. This was a major part of
the work of Christ on earth, he who was sacrificed for the sins of the
whole earth.
Of course I expect many arguments on this and this was near the
beginning of Christ's ministry on the earth. During the course of
Christ's first ministry on earth he said this,...
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life;
no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would
also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen
Him.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father [cause us to
see the Father--that is all we ask]; then we shall be satisfied.
Joh 14:9 Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a
time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has
seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the
Father?
Now there is much more to this in Chapter 14 for those that care to
see, yet here Jesus clearly states, Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father.
Jesus was authorized to speak this, He was God's representative on
earth and spoke only on the authorization of His Father. He
represented God well, and He also showed the anger of God regarding
the money changers in the temple, tossing over their tables and
running them out of the temple.
Still need convincing, like a JW will? Very near the end of his
ministry on earth with the messages of Good News, Christ said this,...
Joh 20:26 Eight days later His disciples were again in the house, and
Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though they were behind closed
doors, and stood among them and said, Peace to you!
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Reach out your finger here, and see
My hands; and put out your hand and place [it] in My side. Do not be
faithless and incredulous, but [stop your unbelief and] believe!
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you
now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied
are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to
and trusted and relied on Me.
Yes, ALL the disciples, not just the twelve know fully knew who they
had been living with and following. The rest of the world around
Jerusalem saw God the Father, via Jesus, whether they fully understood
or not.
So we can see now that mankind has seen God since it was an objective
of Jesus to make Him known to all that would listen. God showed
through Jesus Christ many signs, wonders, miracles and healing's.
Raising people from the dead and freeing all who were oppressed of the
enemy.
Jesus here in this last passage also left a message directly to you
and me, when He said, "Blessed and happy and to be envied are those
who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and
trusted and relied on Me."
Notice, he did not say washed with water, but have believed, etc.
So you believe that Matthew 3:11 make water baptism unecessary..I
would agree with you that in some cases it would not be required
like that of the thief on the cross, or new believers that are as
yet not a member of a church some where, but in the end don't you
also believe that this would be solely up to the discretion of God ?
Good answer.
? Do you have a fever ?(jokingly) Thank you Patrick.
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