Discussion:
How Destruction Of The Monasteries Stamped Out Industrial Revolution
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Sound of Trumpet
2010-09-06 12:39:41 UTC
Permalink
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts

Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'

The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire

Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78

The turbulent love life of Henry VIII, which led to the Reformation
and dissolution of the monasteries, may also have postponed the
industrial revolution by 200 years.

Archaeologists have found evidence that the Cistercian monks of
Rievaulx Abbey, Yorkshire, were developing a prototype blast furnace
for the large-scale production of cast iron when they were evicted by
the king in 1538.

Click to enlarge

Without the Reformation, it is possible that the seeds of industrial
Britain could have been sown in the tranquil cloisters of North
Yorkshire.

In an attempt to discover more about the industrious monks of
Rievaulx, researchers will today produce iron in the abbey grounds for
the first time in 450 years.

By analysing the slag produced in the recreated clay furnace,
scientists hope to find clues about the development of the full-scale
blast furnace, the invention that perhaps more than any other ushered
in the industrial age.

Although the popular perception of monasteries is one of study,
contemplation, prayer and bee-keeping, the reality of medieval
Yorkshire was very different. Rievaulx had its own facilities for
producing iron for the abbey's quarries and farms, and for sale to the
outside world.

After the monks were expelled, an inventory of the abbey listed a
"bloomsmithy" at Laskill, an outstation about four miles from the
abbey.

Dr Gerry McDonnell, an archaeometallurgist at Bradford University, was
intrigued to find out how far the monks had developed iron technology.

Since the Iron Age, the most common form of furnace had been a clay
stack, usually around 6ft high and 3ft wide and built around a frame
of willow withies. Charcoal and iron were piled into the top and air
was pumped into it with bellows.

Iron in a stack furnace forms a "bloom" on the clay which has to be
chipped off, heated and worked to remove as many impurities as
possible. Stack furnaces are unlikely to reach the 1,500C needed to
melt iron. To create cast iron, blast furnaces with mechanically
powered bellows are needed. Textbooks used to state that the first
were built in Kent in the 1490s.

But Dr McDonnell believes that the transition was far more complex.
"There is confusion between the idea that the blast furnace equalled
cast iron," he said. "Now there is evidence that cast iron was in use
long before that, even as far back as the Saxon period."

What matters is not the creation of cast iron, but the large-scale
production of cast iron in dedicated furnaces. Dr McDonnell believes
that the Rievaulx monks were close to creating such a furnace at
Laskill.

An excavation has revealed a square, stone built furnace around 15ft
across which was probably water powered. The slag of a primitive stack
furnace contains high concentrations of iron. But a chemical analysis
of the slag at Laskill reveals concentrations far more typical of a
blast furnace.

"One of the key things is that the Cistercians had a regular meeting
of abbots every year and they had the means of sharing technological
advances across Europe," he said. "They effectively had a stranglehold
on iron. The break-up of the monasteries broke up this network of
technology transfer.

"They had the potential to move to blast furnaces that produced
nothing but cast iron. They were poised to do it on a large scale, but
by breaking up the virtual monopoly, Henry VIII effectively broke up
that potential."

An experiment by English Heritage and Bradford University will attempt
to produce iron today and tomorrow at the abbey for the first time
since the time of the Reformation.

Ian Panter, a scientific adviser to English Heritage, said: "There are
so many unanswered questions about the way monks produced iron that
the only way to resolve them is to rebuild one of their furnaces.

"It will take up to eight hours to reach peak temperature and heat
sensors will monitor each burn. Slag left over will be analysed and
compared with archaeological finds to provide further clues about
Rievaulx's industrial past."
TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; United Kingdom
Robert Carnegie
2010-09-06 13:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow. An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.

How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican? And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation. I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination. Or something.
Roger Pearse
2010-09-06 13:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.

What a wanker.
Robert Carnegie
2010-09-06 13:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
I /can/ - of course - I just chose not to. You really think I made a
mistake?
Christopher A. Lee
2010-09-06 14:58:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 06:58:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
I /can/ - of course - I just chose not to. You really think I made a
mistake?
Pearse? Honest?
Christopher A. Lee
2010-09-06 14:57:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 06:33:04 -0700 (PDT), Roger Pearse
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
And Pearse once again demonstrates he is a pathological narcissist
with gratuitous nastiness.
Post by Roger Pearse
What a wanker.
What a wanker.
thomas p.
2010-09-06 18:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 06:33:04 -0700 (PDT), Roger Pearse
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow. An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican? And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation. I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination. Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
And Pearse once again demonstrates he is a pathological narcissist
with gratuitous nastiness.
Post by Roger Pearse
What a wanker.
What a wanker.
While mooning over holy cards.
Larry
2010-09-06 18:27:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
What a wanker.
I think it's a fair question. If these monks were making a blast furnace
in Yorkshire, monks in other countries of the communications network
would surely have been working on the same technology that could make the
Vatican RICH, the primary aim of the Catholic Clergy even today.
Monasteries all over Europe would have been making blast furnaces, not
just one in Yorkshire in the backwater of the Catholic Empire.

There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were there
ever blast furnaces near Rome?
William Black
2010-09-06 18:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow. An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican? And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation. I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination. Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
What a wanker.
I think it's a fair question. If these monks were making a blast furnace
in Yorkshire, monks in other countries of the communications network
would surely have been working on the same technology that could make the
Vatican RICH, the primary aim of the Catholic Clergy even today.
Monasteries all over Europe would have been making blast furnaces, not
just one in Yorkshire in the backwater of the Catholic Empire.
There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were there
ever blast furnaces near Rome?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnaces#Medieval_Europe

Fourth paragraph down.

They reckon the operation in Yorkshire was shut down by the time of the
Reformation
--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
W.T.S.
2010-09-06 21:48:49 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@74.209.131.13>, ***@home.com
says...
Post by Larry
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
What a wanker.
I think it's a fair question. If these monks were making a blast furnace
in Yorkshire, monks in other countries of the communications network
would surely have been working on the same technology that could make the
Vatican RICH, the primary aim of the Catholic Clergy even today.
Monasteries all over Europe would have been making blast furnaces, not
just one in Yorkshire in the backwater of the Catholic Empire.
There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were there
ever blast furnaces near Rome?
Good points. The destruction of the monistaries in Great Britain was a
very wise idea whose time had come.
--
http://folding.stanford.edu
Save lives, visit today!
William Black
2010-09-06 22:10:38 UTC
Permalink
On 06/09/10 22:48, W.T.S. wrote:

The destruction of the monistaries in Great Britain was a
Post by W.T.S.
very wise idea whose time had come.
England and Wales.
--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
John Briggs
2010-09-06 23:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by W.T.S.
The destruction of the monistaries in Great Britain was a
very wise idea whose time had come.
England and Wales.
That does leave the problem of Scotland: there was no Dissolution,
instead the monasteries just vanished - more or less overnight - in 1560.
--
John Briggs
Robert Carnegie
2010-09-06 22:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by W.T.S.
says...
Post by Larry
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow.  An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican?  And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the Counter-
Reformation.  I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder by Guy
Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for political
assassination.  Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
What a wanker.
I think it's a fair question. If these monks were making a blast furnace
in Yorkshire, monks in other countries of the communications network
would surely have been working on the same technology that could make the
Vatican RICH, the primary aim of the Catholic Clergy even today.
Monasteries all over Europe would have been making blast furnaces, not
just one in Yorkshire in the backwater of the Catholic Empire.
There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were there
ever blast furnaces near Rome?
Good points. The destruction of the monistaries in Great Britain was a
very wise idea whose time had come.
Inexpertly operated blast furnaces might be a quick way to achieve
that.
Mike Schilling
2010-09-07 06:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by W.T.S.
Good points. The destruction of the monistaries in Great Britain was a
very wise idea whose time had come.
Inexpertly operated blast furnaces might be a quick way to achieve
that.
It would be amusing if the monks running the blast furnaces took the same
approach to safety that many American churches initially did with lightning
rods. "Yes, we are familiar with the concept of a "safety valve", but we
feel that introducing them would indicate a lack of faith in the Almighty."
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2010-09-07 14:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schilling
"Yes, we are familiar with the concept of a "safety valve", but we
feel that introducing them would indicate a lack of faith in the Almighty."
Blast furnaces do not operate under pressure. The lining can burn
through or you can make a mistake while tapping the metal but it is
practically impossible to get one to explode.

Ken Young
Robert Carnegie
2010-09-07 16:09:33 UTC
Permalink
 "Yes, we are familiar with the concept of a "safety valve", but we
feel that introducing them would indicate a lack of faith in the Almighty."
 Blast furnaces do not operate under pressure. The lining can burn
through or you can make a mistake while tapping the metal but it is
practically impossible to get one to explode.
...build it over the brandy cellar?
Michael A. Terrell
2010-11-26 05:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Mike Schilling
"Yes, we are familiar with the concept of a "safety valve", but we
feel that introducing them would indicate a lack of faith in the Almighty."
Blast furnaces do not operate under pressure. The lining can burn
through or you can make a mistake while tapping the metal but it is
practically impossible to get one to explode.
Dump some water into one and see what happens. I grew up in a steel
town and their were daily explosions from the slag pits which had a
lower temperature differential.
--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!
Larry
2010-09-07 16:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schilling
.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by W.T.S.
Good points. The destruction of the monistaries in Great Britain
was a very wise idea whose time had come.
Inexpertly operated blast furnaces might be a quick way to achieve
that.
It would be amusing if the monks running the blast furnaces took the
same approach to safety that many American churches initially did with
lightning rods. "Yes, we are familiar with the concept of a "safety
valve", but we feel that introducing them would indicate a lack of
faith in the Almighty."
I used to fix church organs for a living. Many times I have deserted the
faithful's church to go sit safely in my truck until the storm passed
because of the fire and brimstone of static discharge coming out of the
wall outlets.....

Any church over 30 years old should be considered a fire/safety hazard.
It's cheaper to let the good ol' boys who know a little about electrics
wire the church than to hire a professional electrician who knows what
he's doing. Look for the 2-pronged, non-grounded WALL outlets being used
on the fireproof plywood stage as floor outlets all pushed in and broken
because some 400 pound Christian woman in spike heels and a red dress
crushed them. Many church fires blamed on rednecks are caused by these
outlets simply breaking down and setting the plywood stages on fire when
noone is around all during the week. I remember one in the country
burning without anyone even noticing! They showed up on Sunday and all
that was left was some smoking pieces, the concrete front steps and the
brick chimney still attached to the burned out hulk of a gas furnace used
in winter. Everything else was gone.

Message from God??

Pentacostals take their connection to the space alien very seriously. In
a Pentacostal church, one Sunday back in the 1990's, the preacher was
giving it all he had to keep 'em in line with thoughts of hell during a
thunderstorm the faithful just knew God wouldn't let harm the new church
building that didn't have a big steeple to hit. God wasn't listening
then, either. A direct lightning hit blew a 4 ft wide hole in the new
roof and hit a 4x4 electrical handibox in the roof rafters because it was
the highest ground in the building. The cheap PVC conduit didn't save it
like steel would have and it melted every wire in the attic on its way to
the nice power panel, which exploded clean out of the wall shooting
flames and free electrons across the sanctuary. God had sent them all a
message....right during service! The entire electrical system was
destroyed with everything hooked to it.

They called me to do an insurance estimate so they could replace the
brand new organ I had just installed a month ago, with nice Leslie
speaker cabinet and a fair PA system. Everything was destroyed,
completely. I think it blew every chip in the computerized organ console
and the inside of the PA amp looked like someone had taken a blowtorch to
it! It was a BIG hit! Even the speaker cones on the PA speakers were
SHREDDED!

When I arrived, the deacons were watching some other contractors that had
arrived before me. When I entered the front door, having worked for
these guys before, I quipped, "I understand there are sinners amongst
you!" They all had a good laugh from it and told me the rest of the
story....

Monday morning, when the church secretary arrived, she found the
preacher's office cleaned out! Everything that belonged to him was gone!
She called the deacons and they went over to the preacher's house to find
the doors open and the keys to the church's house they let the preachers
live in on the kitchen counter...no note, no nothing. All his stuff had
been cleaned out of the house and he had been nice enough to clean the
house up of his trash before riding off into the sunset....EVEN WITHOUT
HIS LAST PAYCHECK! There was no forwarding address or they'd have sent
it to him. He simply vanished! The deacons told me they think he was
fooling around with someone's wife in the church, but didn't know who and
it was tearing the church apart trying to find the "guilty woman".

Well, I did my research and filed my report. We delivered yet another
new organ/Leslie just like the last one and I sold them a bigger PA
system that worked much better than the one they cheaped out on the first
time, now that they were flush with cash from the insurance company.

It even blew the clock radio right off the secretary's desk!
a425couple
2010-09-14 14:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Any church over 30 years old should be considered a fire/safety hazard.
It's cheaper to let the good ----
Pentacostals take their connection to the space alien very seriously. In
a Pentacostal church, one Sunday back in the 1990's, the preacher was
giving it all he had to keep 'em in line with thoughts of hell during a
thunderstorm the faithful just knew God wouldn't let harm the new church
building that didn't have a big steeple to hit. God wasn't listening
then, either. A direct lightning hit blew a 4 ft wide hole in the new
roof and hit a 4x4 electrical handibox in the roof rafters because it was
the highest ground in the building.
Interesting read, thanks for posting it!
Mike Dworetsky
2010-09-07 09:08:58 UTC
Permalink
news:1ab67a17-26a7-
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
Wow. An EIGHT YEARS OLD stupid idea.
How did wicked old King Henry prevent the Industrial Revolution from
happening in every other Catholic country that had monasteries,
including Italy, Rome, and the Vatican? And in fact, how did he ever
win, against the mighty theological-industrial complex of the
Counter- Reformation. I mean, consider the invention of gunpowder
by Guy Fawkes in 1606, who later established the Nobel Prize for
political assassination. Or something.
And an atheist promptly reveals that .... HE CAN'T READ.
What a wanker.
I think it's a fair question. If these monks were making a blast
furnace in Yorkshire, monks in other countries of the communications
network would surely have been working on the same technology that
could make the Vatican RICH, the primary aim of the Catholic Clergy
even today. Monasteries all over Europe would have been making blast
furnaces, not just one in Yorkshire in the backwater of the Catholic
Empire.
There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were
there ever blast furnaces near Rome?
As I recall (from visits to Ironbridge in Shropshire, and from reading), the
key to the scale and purity of iron production in the Industrial Revolution
was the discovery and development of methods for using inexpensive and
readily available coal (in the purified form of coke) as a fuel, rather than
the tedious production and use of charcoal from forests. The latter could
support iron-making on a small scale, but not on a mass-production scale.
--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2010-09-07 14:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were
there ever blast furnaces near Rome?
Blast furnaces require fuel, ore and limestone within a transportable
distance. In the medieval era fuel was charcoal. So you need an area
with wood, iron ore and limestone all available in England that was the
Weald. According to "Safeguard of the Seas" by Rodger out put of cast
and wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon. The actual industrial
revolution depended on an increase in iron production that could not be
fuelled by Charcoal especially as the iron seams in the Weald were near
exhaustion. It also needed a method of converting cast iron to wrought
iron that was cost effective.

Most technical historians date the IR from the development of the
coking process, or from the introduction of puddling when wrought iron
became cheap enough for structural use.

Ken Young
Larry
2010-09-07 16:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon.
....and we've learned nothing since then. We're still using up our
resources to make cannons, even today.

How stupid.
David Johnston
2010-09-07 17:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon.
....and we've learned nothing since then. We're still using up our
resources to make cannons, even today.
How stupid.
You know, most of those cannon eventually got recycled into something
else.
William Black
2010-09-07 18:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Larry
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon.
....and we've learned nothing since then. We're still using up our
resources to make cannons, even today.
How stupid.
You know, most of those cannon eventually got recycled into something
else.
Mainly bollards in places like public parks.

There were hundreds of them around the UK which were actually old
cannons with the trunions knocked off.

I think they've all gone now.
--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
John Briggs
2010-09-07 21:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by David Johnston
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon.
....and we've learned nothing since then. We're still using up our
resources to make cannons, even today.
How stupid.
You know, most of those cannon eventually got recycled into something
else.
Mainly bollards in places like public parks.
There were hundreds of them around the UK which were actually old
cannons with the trunions knocked off.
I think they've all gone now.
They've been recycled...
--
John Briggs
Robert Carnegie
2010-09-08 01:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Briggs
Post by William Black
Post by David Johnston
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon.
....and we've learned nothing since then. We're still using up our
resources to make cannons, even today.
How stupid.
You know, most of those cannon eventually got recycled into something
else.
Mainly bollards in places like public parks.
There were hundreds of them around the UK which were actually old
cannons with the trunions knocked off.
I think they've all gone now.
They've been recycled...
Made back into cannons for the second World War, perhaps...
William Black
2010-09-08 13:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by John Briggs
Post by William Black
Post by David Johnston
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon.
....and we've learned nothing since then. We're still using up our
resources to make cannons, even today.
How stupid.
You know, most of those cannon eventually got recycled into something
else.
Mainly bollards in places like public parks.
There were hundreds of them around the UK which were actually old
cannons with the trunions knocked off.
I think they've all gone now.
They've been recycled...
Made back into cannons for the second World War, perhaps...
Cast iron, so not suitable.

Plus I can remember them being there when I was a child in the 'sixties.
--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
John Briggs
2010-09-07 21:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Larry
There are no blast furnaces run by monks near Vatican Center. Were
there ever blast furnaces near Rome?
Blast furnaces require fuel, ore and limestone within a transportable
distance. In the medieval era fuel was charcoal. So you need an area
with wood, iron ore and limestone all available in England that was the
Weald. According to "Safeguard of the Seas" by Rodger out put of cast
and wrought iron from the Weald increased by 1000% under the Tudors with
most of the cast iron being used to make canon. The actual industrial
revolution depended on an increase in iron production that could not be
fuelled by Charcoal especially as the iron seams in the Weald were near
exhaustion. It also needed a method of converting cast iron to wrought
iron that was cost effective.
Most technical historians date the IR from the development of the
coking process, or from the introduction of puddling when wrought iron
became cheap enough for structural use.
Economic historians disagree. As, I suppose, would technical historians
who are not actually historians of iron and steel production...
--
John Briggs
William Black
2010-09-06 13:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
The turbulent love life of Henry VIII, which led to the Reformation
and dissolution of the monasteries, may also have postponed the
industrial revolution by 200 years.
Archaeologists have found evidence that the Cistercian monks of
Rievaulx Abbey, Yorkshire, were developing a prototype blast furnace
for the large-scale production of cast iron when they were evicted by
the king in 1538.
Click to enlarge
Without the Reformation, it is possible that the seeds of industrial
Britain could have been sown in the tranquil cloisters of North
Yorkshire.
In an attempt to discover more about the industrious monks of
Rievaulx, researchers will today produce iron in the abbey grounds for
the first time in 450 years.
By analysing the slag produced in the recreated clay furnace,
scientists hope to find clues about the development of the full-scale
blast furnace, the invention that perhaps more than any other ushered
in the industrial age.
Although the popular perception of monasteries is one of study,
contemplation, prayer and bee-keeping, the reality of medieval
Yorkshire was very different. Rievaulx had its own facilities for
producing iron for the abbey's quarries and farms, and for sale to the
outside world.
After the monks were expelled, an inventory of the abbey listed a
"bloomsmithy" at Laskill, an outstation about four miles from the
abbey.
Dr Gerry McDonnell, an archaeometallurgist at Bradford University, was
intrigued to find out how far the monks had developed iron technology.
Since the Iron Age, the most common form of furnace had been a clay
stack, usually around 6ft high and 3ft wide and built around a frame
of willow withies. Charcoal and iron were piled into the top and air
was pumped into it with bellows.
Iron in a stack furnace forms a "bloom" on the clay which has to be
chipped off, heated and worked to remove as many impurities as
possible. Stack furnaces are unlikely to reach the 1,500C needed to
melt iron. To create cast iron, blast furnaces with mechanically
powered bellows are needed. Textbooks used to state that the first
were built in Kent in the 1490s.
But Dr McDonnell believes that the transition was far more complex.
"There is confusion between the idea that the blast furnace equalled
cast iron," he said. "Now there is evidence that cast iron was in use
long before that, even as far back as the Saxon period."
What matters is not the creation of cast iron, but the large-scale
production of cast iron in dedicated furnaces. Dr McDonnell believes
that the Rievaulx monks were close to creating such a furnace at
Laskill.
An excavation has revealed a square, stone built furnace around 15ft
across which was probably water powered. The slag of a primitive stack
furnace contains high concentrations of iron. But a chemical analysis
of the slag at Laskill reveals concentrations far more typical of a
blast furnace.
"One of the key things is that the Cistercians had a regular meeting
of abbots every year and they had the means of sharing technological
advances across Europe," he said. "They effectively had a stranglehold
on iron. The break-up of the monasteries broke up this network of
technology transfer.
The other key point about the Cistercians and this story is that they'd
been operating blast furnaces for a very long time by the Reformation.
--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
Josef Balluch
2010-09-06 22:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
Pure speculation, as the article shows.
Post by Sound of Trumpet
The turbulent love life of Henry VIII, which led to the Reformation
and dissolution of the monasteries, ...
< chuckle! >

The foot dragging in Rome on the matter of reform may also have been an
influence.


...
Post by Sound of Trumpet
After the monks were expelled, an inventory of the abbey listed a
"bloomsmithy" at Laskill, an outstation about four miles from the
abbey.
"Bloom" refers to sponge iron, ie: not the pig iron produced by a blast
furnace.


...
Post by Sound of Trumpet
What matters is not the creation of cast iron, but the large-scale
production of cast iron in dedicated furnaces. Dr McDonnell believes
that the Rievaulx monks were close to creating such a furnace at
Laskill.
IOW, they did not have one yet.


...
Post by Sound of Trumpet
"They had the potential to move to blast furnaces that produced
nothing but cast iron. They were poised to do it on a large scale, but
by breaking up the virtual monopoly, Henry VIII effectively broke up
that potential."
yaaawwwwnnnnn

The Rievaulx Abbey hit it's peak in the mid 12th century and was in serious
decline by the time of King Henry. Furthermore, given the Cistercians
stated goals of self-sufficiency and the simple life, it is very doubtful
that they much cared about being on the bleeding edge of technological
reform.


...


Regards,

Josef


Science has done more for the development of western civilization
in one hundred years than Christianity did in eighteen hundred
years.

-- John Burroughs
Velociraptor
2010-09-06 23:58:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 05:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/703405/posts
Henry 'stamped out Industrial Revolution'
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/21/2002 | David Derbyshire
Posted on 21 June 2002 03:15:49 by Pokey78
The turbulent love life of Henry VIII, which led to the Reformation
and dissolution of the monasteries, may also have postponed the
industrial revolution by 200 years.
Those nasty Protestants, stopping the good Catholics!
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Archaeologists have found evidence that the Cistercian monks of
Rievaulx Abbey, Yorkshire, were developing a prototype blast furnace
for the large-scale production of cast iron when they were evicted by
the king in 1538.
However ...
According to the Gerry McDonnell's web site, the Abbey lands were
taken over by the Earl of Rutland who continued mining and smelting
iron. The ironworks continued, and a more advanced blast furnace was
built in 1570.

http://archmetals.org.uk/project_summary_rievaulx.html

So perhaps the claim that the industrial revolution was delayed by 200
years is the purest moonshine?
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Click to enlarge
Without the Reformation, it is possible that the seeds of industrial
Britain could have been sown in the tranquil cloisters of North
Yorkshire.
In an attempt to discover more about the industrious monks of
Rievaulx, researchers will today produce iron in the abbey grounds for
the first time in 450 years.
By analysing the slag produced in the recreated clay furnace,
scientists hope to find clues about the development of the full-scale
blast furnace, the invention that perhaps more than any other ushered
in the industrial age.
Although the popular perception of monasteries is one of study,
contemplation, prayer and bee-keeping, the reality of medieval
Yorkshire was very different. Rievaulx had its own facilities for
producing iron for the abbey's quarries and farms, and for sale to the
outside world.
After the monks were expelled, an inventory of the abbey listed a
"bloomsmithy" at Laskill, an outstation about four miles from the
abbey.
Dr Gerry McDonnell, an archaeometallurgist at Bradford University, was
intrigued to find out how far the monks had developed iron technology.
Since the Iron Age, the most common form of furnace had been a clay
stack, usually around 6ft high and 3ft wide and built around a frame
of willow withies. Charcoal and iron were piled into the top and air
was pumped into it with bellows.
Iron in a stack furnace forms a "bloom" on the clay which has to be
chipped off, heated and worked to remove as many impurities as
possible. Stack furnaces are unlikely to reach the 1,500C needed to
melt iron. To create cast iron, blast furnaces with mechanically
powered bellows are needed. Textbooks used to state that the first
were built in Kent in the 1490s.
But Dr McDonnell believes that the transition was far more complex.
"There is confusion between the idea that the blast furnace equalled
cast iron," he said. "Now there is evidence that cast iron was in use
long before that, even as far back as the Saxon period."
What matters is not the creation of cast iron, but the large-scale
production of cast iron in dedicated furnaces. Dr McDonnell believes
that the Rievaulx monks were close to creating such a furnace at
Laskill.
An excavation has revealed a square, stone built furnace around 15ft
across which was probably water powered. The slag of a primitive stack
furnace contains high concentrations of iron. But a chemical analysis
of the slag at Laskill reveals concentrations far more typical of a
blast furnace.
"One of the key things is that the Cistercians had a regular meeting
of abbots every year and they had the means of sharing technological
advances across Europe," he said. "They effectively had a stranglehold
on iron. The break-up of the monasteries broke up this network of
technology transfer.
"They had the potential to move to blast furnaces that produced
nothing but cast iron. They were poised to do it on a large scale, but
by breaking up the virtual monopoly, Henry VIII effectively broke up
that potential."
An experiment by English Heritage and Bradford University will attempt
to produce iron today and tomorrow at the abbey for the first time
since the time of the Reformation.
Ian Panter, a scientific adviser to English Heritage, said: "There are
so many unanswered questions about the way monks produced iron that
the only way to resolve them is to rebuild one of their furnaces.
"It will take up to eight hours to reach peak temperature and heat
sensors will monitor each burn. Slag left over will be analysed and
compared with archaeological finds to provide further clues about
Rievaulx's industrial past."
TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; United Kingdom
It would be interesting if anyone can find a more recent link,
preferably to an academic source, rather than a newspaper.
________________________________________
velociraptor_nice_reptile @NO_SPAM yahoo.co.uk
Josef Balluch
2010-09-07 01:05:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 00:58:18 +0100, Velociraptor wrote:


...
Post by Velociraptor
However ...
According to the Gerry McDonnell's web site, the Abbey lands were
taken over by the Earl of Rutland who continued mining and smelting
iron. The ironworks continued, and a more advanced blast furnace was
built in 1570.
http://archmetals.org.uk/project_summary_rievaulx.html
So perhaps the claim that the industrial revolution was delayed by 200
years is the purest moonshine?
Quite possible. At the same link it states that: "Ironworking ceased in c
1650 at the end of the Civil War."

The demand for iron had dropped off dramatically. Most likely there were no
nascent Industrial Revolutions to keep things going.



Regards,

Josef


Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful
twilight that enhances every object.

-- Albert Camus
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