Discussion:
Can the so called Orthodox supply a verse of Holy Scripture commanding us to serve idols ? 1 Cor. 6:9,10...
(too old to reply)
old man joe
2010-11-26 13:24:57 UTC
Permalink
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.

yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.

the whole passion of idol worship along with idol worshipers is set for destruction as we read in
Rev. 21:8... there we read that idol worshipers will terminate in the Lake of Fire. they are not
redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10 which tells us that all of their efforts and religious
ceremonies does not bring about salvation. such are empty pursuits and they turn not to God through
Holy Scripture which tells them what they do does nothing more than buy them a place in the Lake of
Fire.

their defense of idol worship exposes the idol worshiper. it is common for idol worshipers to
attack any poster bringing to them text out of God's Word speaking against idol worship. this is
how they suppose they justify themselves when the Word of God says to the contrary... those who are
of God keep His Commandments, 1 Jn. 2:3,4. His Commandments insist we do not serve graven images in
any form, Ex. 20:1-6.

this is indeed easy to understand... God can not be likened to anything of His Creation, Isa. 46:5.

idol worshipers worship Creation. the get copies of their gods; whether it be two dimensional
pictures or three dimensional images, even body parts of the deceased humans of whom they worship,
such as the hand of John the Baptist or the alleged lock of Mary's hair they claim to have, and say
prayers to these things; lighting candles to these things and kneel before these things.

there is no redefinition of language the idol worshiper can possibly give in defense of his idol
worshiping practices... he gives to his idols the attributes of God. he supposes Mary and his
' saints ' are hearing him and countless others from heaven and answering prayers from multitudes of
people when not a verse in Holy Scripture is to be found whereas the dead hear from heaven. such
evidences man made religion of calling up the dead... necromancing... a thing strictly forbidden by
God, De. 18:9-14.

why then do idol worship do such things ? simply because the God of the Bible has not redeemed them
as He says in 1 Cor. 6:9,10. they will not obey the God of the Bible when He says, " Little
children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen, " 1 Jn. 5:21, they rather want to look like Christianity
is just another idol worshiping religion of the world.
Less religion, more light
2010-11-27 22:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the
Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us
to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned
in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.
yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping
religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.
The Bible is your idol.
Post by old man joe
the whole passion of idol worship along with idol worshipers is set for
destruction as we read in
Rev. 21:8... there we read that idol worshipers will terminate in the Lake
of Fire. they are not
redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10 which tells us that all of
their efforts and religious
ceremonies does not bring about salvation. such are empty pursuits and
they turn not to God through
Holy Scripture which tells them what they do does nothing more than buy
them a place in the Lake of
Fire.
their defense of idol worship exposes the idol worshiper. it is common
for idol worshipers to
attack any poster bringing to them text out of God's Word speaking against
idol worship. this is
how they suppose they justify themselves when the Word of God says to the
contrary... those who are
of God keep His Commandments, 1 Jn. 2:3,4. His Commandments insist we do
not serve graven images in
any form, Ex. 20:1-6.
this is indeed easy to understand... God can not be likened to anything of
His Creation, Isa. 46:5.
idol worshipers worship Creation. the get copies of their gods; whether
it be two dimensional
pictures or three dimensional images, even body parts of the deceased
humans of whom they worship,
such as the hand of John the Baptist or the alleged lock of Mary's hair
they claim to have, and say
prayers to these things; lighting candles to these things and kneel before these things.
there is no redefinition of language the idol worshiper can possibly give
in defense of his idol
worshiping practices... he gives to his idols the attributes of God. he
supposes Mary and his
' saints ' are hearing him and countless others from heaven and answering
prayers from multitudes of
people when not a verse in Holy Scripture is to be found whereas the dead
hear from heaven. such
evidences man made religion of calling up the dead... necromancing... a
thing strictly forbidden by
God, De. 18:9-14.
why then do idol worship do such things ? simply because the God of the
Bible has not redeemed them
as He says in 1 Cor. 6:9,10. they will not obey the God of the Bible when
He says, " Little
children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen, " 1 Jn. 5:21, they rather want
to look like Christianity
is just another idol worshiping religion of the world.
old man joe
2010-11-28 11:00:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the
Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us
to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned
in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.
yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping
religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.

" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4

not...

" ... every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of those who speak for their idols of
dead people. "
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
the whole passion of idol worship along with idol worshipers is set for
destruction as we read in
Rev. 21:8... there we read that idol worshipers will terminate in the Lake
of Fire. they are not
redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10 which tells us that all of
their efforts and religious
ceremonies does not bring about salvation. such are empty pursuits and
they turn not to God through
Holy Scripture which tells them what they do does nothing more than buy
them a place in the Lake of
Fire.
their defense of idol worship exposes the idol worshiper. it is common
for idol worshipers to
attack any poster bringing to them text out of God's Word speaking against
idol worship. this is
how they suppose they justify themselves when the Word of God says to the
contrary... those who are
of God keep His Commandments, 1 Jn. 2:3,4. His Commandments insist we do
not serve graven images in
any form, Ex. 20:1-6.
this is indeed easy to understand... God can not be likened to anything of
His Creation, Isa. 46:5.
idol worshipers worship Creation. the get copies of their gods; whether
it be two dimensional
pictures or three dimensional images, even body parts of the deceased
humans of whom they worship,
such as the hand of John the Baptist or the alleged lock of Mary's hair
they claim to have, and say
prayers to these things; lighting candles to these things and kneel before these things.
there is no redefinition of language the idol worshiper can possibly give
in defense of his idol
worshiping practices... he gives to his idols the attributes of God. he
supposes Mary and his
' saints ' are hearing him and countless others from heaven and answering
prayers from multitudes of
people when not a verse in Holy Scripture is to be found whereas the dead
hear from heaven. such
evidences man made religion of calling up the dead... necromancing... a
thing strictly forbidden by
God, De. 18:9-14.
why then do idol worship do such things ? simply because the God of the
Bible has not redeemed them
as He says in 1 Cor. 6:9,10. they will not obey the God of the Bible when
He says, " Little
children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen, " 1 Jn. 5:21, they rather want
to look like Christianity
is just another idol worshiping religion of the world.
raven1
2010-11-28 18:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the
Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us
to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned
in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.
yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping
religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4
Thanks for proving his point. You don't worship god, you worship a
book men wrote about him.
Less religion, more light
2010-11-28 20:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the
Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us
to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned
in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.
yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping
religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship
dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4
not...
" ... every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of those who speak for their idols of
dead people. "
Last time I checked Jesus was a dead person from our essential point of
view.

And what if the writings about him were corrupted by people and negative
entities?
And what if our understandings of Christ's mission were misunderstood to
begin with?
Then Christianity is wrong about God from day one. Can you handle that
possibility?
Maybe you have to go beyond just obsessing over one book from one part of
the world to find God.
old man joe
2010-11-29 11:34:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:43:10 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the
Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us
to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned
in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.
yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping
religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship
dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4
not...
" ... every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of those who speak for their idols of
dead people. "
Last time I checked Jesus was a dead person from our essential point of
view.
Jesus Christ is The Living God, Jn. 1:1; what have you " checked " in order for you to say in your
" essential point of view " He is dead ? you are saying " God is dead, " which is the same as
saying... " there is no God. "
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if the writings about him were corrupted by people and negative
entities?
God tells us exactly how His Word the Bible came to us in Jer. 36:1-8. the Word of God isn't
founded upon " what if, " Jn. 7:17.
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if our understandings of Christ's mission were misunderstood to
begin with?
if that were the case than there is no such thing as truth in this world... might as well burn the
Bible as the Catholics did, and God was wrong to say of Himself... " Jesus saith unto him, I am the
way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " Jn. 14:6.

and again... " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. " Jn. 20:31.

and again... " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " Ro. 10:17.

to misunderstand Christs mission is to have been passed by for salvation because He says...
" And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " Jn. 8:32 those who are not
" free " are those who find the Word of God to be " foolishness. " 1 Cor. 1:18. they are still
bound by Satan, sin and death.
Post by Less religion, more light
Then Christianity is wrong about God from day one. Can you handle that
possibility?
this is an amazing statement. salvation is based on what God has done for man; not on what man has
done towards God, Ro. 10:20. Christ came to seek and to save, Lk. 19:10, not man came to seek and
to save himself. where Christianity is wrong about God it is because those calling themselves
Christian are not founding their religion on the Word of God, Ps. 66:3.

what then are the idol worshipers founding their religion upon ?... it certainly is not what God
says in His Word, the Bible. God speaks strongly against idol worship but the idol worshipers carry
on with their folly anyway... they simply don't believe God... the Word of God has no meaning in
their lives. otherwise, they would be keeping His Commandments which shows they are of God and that
they love Him, but they don't. Jn. 14:21. instead, the idol worshipers troll names and parts of
doctrines out of the Bible and give to dead people the attributes of God.

God is the God of truth. His Word is truth. one of the many Names of Jesus Christ is, Truth. the
idol worshipers do rather worship dead people, which is completely contrary to the Word of God,
De. 18:9-14 for example. such is not Christianity at all. this is why God declares idol worshipers
are not redeemed, 1 Cor. 6:9,10.
Post by Less religion, more light
Maybe you have to go beyond just obsessing over one book from one part of
the world to find God.
i don't obsess over the one Book, the Bible, and neither does any of the elect. the sum of His Word
is Truth, Ps. 119:160. there is no place else to learn the truth about the Living God except from
His Word, the Bible; otherwise, Jesus was lying when He says of Himself... " I am the Way, the Truth
and the Life... " where else do we find exactly His gospel except from His own mouth which is
faithfully recorded for us in His Word, the Bible by His holy prophets ? 2 Pet.1:21.

certainly not from the religions of the world.

but there's more than that. His Holy Spirit indwells His elect, Jn. 14:17, and teaches His elect
out of His Word, the Bible, Jn.16:13. not so for the unredeemed, Jn. 14:17. these are the tares...
the pretenders of salvation. they will always pervert the Word of God since there is no Light in
them, Isa. 8:20.
raven1
2010-11-29 14:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:43:10 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
no, they can't. neither can the Hindus nor the Catholics nor the
Lutherans nor the Buddhists nor
anyone produce a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us
to make, keep and worship
graven images of God, angels, dead people mentioned in and not mentioned
in Holy Scripture, nor gods
out of man's imagination.
yet, the idol worshipers pass off Christianity as an idol worshiping
religion just as the Hindus
pass off a man made god with the same fervor.
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship
dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4
not...
" ... every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of those who speak for their idols of
dead people. "
Last time I checked Jesus was a dead person from our essential point of
view.
Jesus Christ is The Living God, Jn. 1:1; what have you " checked " in order for you to say in your
" essential point of view " He is dead ? you are saying " God is dead, " which is the same as
saying... " there is no God. "
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if the writings about him were corrupted by people and negative
entities?
God tells us exactly how His Word the Bible came to us in Jer. 36:1-8. the Word of God isn't
founded upon " what if, " Jn. 7:17.
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if our understandings of Christ's mission were misunderstood to
begin with?
if that were the case than there is no such thing as truth in this world... might as well burn the
Bible as the Catholics did, and God was wrong to say of Himself... " Jesus saith unto him, I am the
way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " Jn. 14:6.
and again... " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. " Jn. 20:31.
and again... " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " Ro. 10:17.
to misunderstand Christs mission is to have been passed by for salvation because He says...
" And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " Jn. 8:32 those who are not
" free " are those who find the Word of God to be " foolishness. " 1 Cor. 1:18. they are still
bound by Satan, sin and death.
Post by Less religion, more light
Then Christianity is wrong about God from day one. Can you handle that
possibility?
this is an amazing statement. salvation is based on what God has done for man; not on what man has
done towards God, Ro. 10:20. Christ came to seek and to save, Lk. 19:10, not man came to seek and
to save himself. where Christianity is wrong about God it is because those calling themselves
Christian are not founding their religion on the Word of God, Ps. 66:3.
what then are the idol worshipers founding their religion upon ?... it certainly is not what God
says in His Word, the Bible. God speaks strongly against idol worship but the idol worshipers carry
on with their folly anyway... they simply don't believe God... the Word of God has no meaning in
their lives. otherwise, they would be keeping His Commandments which shows they are of God and that
they love Him, but they don't. Jn. 14:21. instead, the idol worshipers troll names and parts of
doctrines out of the Bible and give to dead people the attributes of God.
God is the God of truth. His Word is truth. one of the many Names of Jesus Christ is, Truth. the
idol worshipers do rather worship dead people, which is completely contrary to the Word of God,
De. 18:9-14 for example. such is not Christianity at all. this is why God declares idol worshipers
are not redeemed, 1 Cor. 6:9,10.
Post by Less religion, more light
Maybe you have to go beyond just obsessing over one book from one part of
the world to find God.
i don't obsess over the one Book, the Bible, and neither does any of the elect. the sum of His Word
is Truth, Ps. 119:160. there is no place else to learn the truth about the Living God except from
His Word, the Bible; otherwise, Jesus was lying when He says of Himself... " I am the Way, the Truth
and the Life... " where else do we find exactly His gospel except from His own mouth which is
faithfully recorded for us in His Word, the Bible by His holy prophets ? 2 Pet.1:21.
certainly not from the religions of the world.
but there's more than that. His Holy Spirit indwells His elect, Jn. 14:17, and teaches His elect
out of His Word, the Bible, Jn.16:13. not so for the unredeemed, Jn. 14:17. these are the tares...
the pretenders of salvation. they will always pervert the Word of God since there is no Light in
them, Isa. 8:20.
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.
matt001
2010-11-29 14:36:27 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
raven1
2010-11-29 23:09:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:36:27 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
Based on what? Their message headers are totally different, and they
don't agree on anything.
matt001
2010-11-30 00:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:36:27 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
Based on what? Their message headers are totally different, and they
don't agree on anything.
Actually, I was jumping to conclusions based on his past modus
operandi and what went on in another thread. I still think it's
possible, but I have no conclusive proof.
Less religion, more light
2010-11-30 05:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by raven1
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:36:27 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
Based on what? Their message headers are totally different, and they
don't agree on anything.
Actually, I was jumping to conclusions based on his past modus
operandi and what went on in another thread. I still think it's
possible, but I have no conclusive proof.
Yeah for sure someone's going to go into a newsgroup and argue with
themselves.
Lol.
matt001
2010-11-30 14:52:21 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 30, 12:01 am, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by matt001
Post by raven1
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:36:27 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
Based on what? Their message headers are totally different, and they
don't agree on anything.
Actually, I was jumping to conclusions based on his past modus
operandi and what went on in another thread. I still think it's
possible, but I have no conclusive proof.
Yeah for sure someone's going to go into a newsgroup and argue with
themselves.
Lol
I thought he was playing "good cop, bad cop" so that he could conitnue
to post about his obsession. Apologies!
Less religion, more light
2010-11-30 20:28:03 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 30, 12:01 am, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by matt001
Post by raven1
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:36:27 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible,
not God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same
person--a complete looney tune.
Based on what? Their message headers are totally different, and
they don't agree on anything.
Actually, I was jumping to conclusions based on his past modus
operandi and what went on in another thread. I still think it's
possible, but I have no conclusive proof.
Yeah for sure someone's going to go into a newsgroup and argue with
themselves.
Lol
I thought he was playing "good cop, bad cop" so that he could conitnue
to post about his obsession. Apologies!
Apology is not necessary. You don't need to apologise for giving me a laugh.
old man joe
2010-11-30 13:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ? and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them. who then is kidding who ?
raven1
2010-11-30 13:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ? and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them.
You still haven't provided a reason why anyone on alt.atheism should
care one way or another.
matt001
2010-11-30 14:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?  
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them.  who then is kidding who ?
I have already told you that I do not intend to exchange proof texts
with you. You use the bible as if it were a sort of magical oracle. In
fact, your approach to it is very similar to that of an extreme muslim
to the Qur'an.

Magic is magic, even when it tries to masquerade as Christianity.
old man joe
2010-12-01 12:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?  
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
bringing your attention to your motive of replying off topic is hardly a personal attack. the crux
of the matter is that you can not supply a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands us to
make graven images of Himself nor dead humans and pray to them. but you decided to speak out
anyway, off topic, and use my post as a spring board for a personal attack.

this is exactly how idol worshipers react to the God of the Bible, Dan.3... they try to justify
themselves at the expense of the poster... this comes from their feeling inferior within themselves.
Post by matt001
and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them.  who then is kidding who ?
I have already told you that I do not intend to exchange proof texts
with you. You use the bible as if it were a sort of magical oracle. In
fact, your approach to it is very similar to that of an extreme muslim
to the Qur'an.
here again you've changed the subject to off topic... you respond to a subject line saying the
Orthodox can not supply a verse out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to make graven images
and change the Bible to a " magical oracle. " the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge but you've instead called God's Word a filthy name... you blaspheme your way through a false
religion which is common among idol worshipers.

i doubt if you know anything about " extreme Muslim's. " you simply attend a religion based on the
word of man and not the Word of God, the Bible, and because you have nothing to do with the Bible
you speak down to it. it's a " magical oracle " in your system of beliefs.
Post by matt001
Magic is magic, even when it tries to masquerade as Christianity.
" magic " is what idol worship is all about. making statues and pictures of dead people and giving
to the dead the attributes of the Living God. its all over the Internet... the Orthodox worship
pictures of Mary and give to her the attributes of God. to suppose she hears from heaven, is magic.

idol worshipers are not redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and will have their part in the
Lake of Fire, Rev.21:8. this is why they get their religious " truth " from other idol worshipers.
they will have nothing to do with the Bible except to troll out of it names and parts of doctrines
as this respondent demonstrates by his defense of idol worship... all of the glory due the Living
God goes instead, to idols.
matt001
2010-12-01 13:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
bringing your attention to your motive of replying off topic is hardly a personal attack.  
I disagree. Your reply was every bit as "ad hominem" as my own post;
perhaps more so
the crux
of the matter is that you can not supply a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands us to
make graven images of Himself nor dead humans and pray to them.  but you decided to speak out
anyway, off topic, and use my post as a spring board for a personal attack.
I am growing tired of repeating myself. You and I have completely
different understandings of what the bible is, how to interpret it,
etc. Given this, it makes no sense for us to fire scripture verses at
each other. Are you able to understand this?
this is exactly how idol worshipers react to the God of the Bible, Dan.3... they try to justify
themselves at the expense of the poster... this comes from their feeling inferior within themselves.
Idol worshippers in the book of Daniel tried to justify themselves "at
the expense of the poster"? ROTFL
At the risk of being tiresonely repetitive, I don't care how you
interpret passages of scripture and attempt to apply them others. I do
not agree with you as to what scripture is and how to interpret it. Do
you understand?
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them. who then is kidding who ?
I have already told you that I do not intend to exchange proof texts
with you. You use the bible as if it were a sort of magical oracle. In
fact, your approach to it is very similar to that of an extreme muslim
to the Qur'an.
here again you've changed the subject to off topic... you respond to a subject line saying the
Orthodox can not supply a verse out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to make graven images
and change the Bible to a " magical oracle. "  the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge but you've instead called God's Word a filthy name... you blaspheme your way through a false
religion which is common among idol worshipers.
You are, as usual, very quick to condemn and label others. I never
said that the bible is a magic oracle, but that you treat it as one.
As to your comment "the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge", I will repear myself yet again. The Holy Scriptures make no
"charge", only you do. I will not exchange scripture passages with
you.
i doubt if you know anything about " extreme Muslim's. "  you simply attend a religion based on the
word of man and not the Word of God, the Bible, and because you have nothing to do with the Bible
you speak down to it.  it's a " magical oracle " in your system of beliefs.
This is all just an attempt to deflect criticism, so I will not
respond except to say that I do not "talk down to the bible"--I simply
refuse to demean it by discussing it with you.
Post by matt001
Magic is magic, even when it tries to masquerade as Christianity.
" magic " is what idol worship is all about.  making statues and pictures of dead people and giving
to the dead the attributes of the Living God.  its all over the Internet... the Orthodox worship
pictures of Mary and give to her the attributes of God.  to suppose she hears from heaven, is magic.
Again, an utter refusal to consider the possibility that what was
written applies to you, by attempting to turn the criticism around and
aim it at others. I don't care what you think about my faith. Whether
or not I am, in your opinion, an idol worshipper does not change the
fact that you are definitely one and that you have turned the bible
into an idol.
idol worshipers are not redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and will have their part in the
Lake of Fire, Rev.21:8.  this is why they get their religious " truth " from other idol worshipers.
they will have nothing to do with the Bible except to troll out of it names and parts of doctrines
as this respondent demonstrates by his defense of idol worship... all of the glory due the Living
God goes instead, to idols
You make the pope look humble. You have set yourself up as a judge and
spend your time condemning others, using your idol, which you believe
that you are capable of interpretaing and understanding without error.
BTW, which protestant translation of the Scriptures do you use? Are
you capable of reading them in the original languages? And to
forstall your repsonse, yes, I know both Hebrew and Greek.
old man joe
2010-12-02 12:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
bringing your attention to your motive of replying off topic is hardly a personal attack.  
I disagree. Your reply was every bit as "ad hominem" as my own post;
perhaps more so
the crux
of the matter is that you can not supply a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands us to
make graven images of Himself nor dead humans and pray to them.  but you decided to speak out
anyway, off topic, and use my post as a spring board for a personal attack.
I am growing tired of repeating myself. You and I have completely
different understandings of what the bible is, how to interpret it,
etc. Given this, it makes no sense for us to fire scripture verses at
each other. Are you able to understand this?
an amazing statement, indeed. all of the elect believe the same things as far as Holy Scripture is
concerned, Jn. 16:13. on the other hand, you talk only out of your own imagination... and upon this
your denomination is founded, not the Bible.

case in point, you haven't offered any Holy Scripture to counter what God says in His Word
concerning the worship of dead people, their body parts, and all of the graven images the Orthodox
are famous for worshiping. so it's far, far away from the truth for you to say we " fire scripture
verses at each other. " you're not offering any Scripture whatsoever in reply to my original post.
Post by matt001
this is exactly how idol worshipers react to the God of the Bible, Dan.3... they try to justify
themselves at the expense of the poster... this comes from their feeling inferior within themselves.
Idol worshippers in the book of Daniel tried to justify themselves "at
the expense of the poster"? ROTFL
At the risk of being tiresonely repetitive, I don't care how you
interpret passages of scripture and attempt to apply them others. I do
not agree with you as to what scripture is and how to interpret it. Do
you understand?
in Daniel 3, the idol worshipers want the elect dead. in Orthodoxy, the idol worshipers want the
elect dead... simply because the idol worshipers want a religion based on idol worship. they hate
every Word of God since the Word of God condemns idol worshipers to the Lake of Fire, Rev. 21:8, and
God labels them not only as idol worshipers but also as homosexuals, 1 Cor. 6:9,10.

again, you have not supplied a single passage out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to worship
dead people, their body parts, dead Mary, and graven images of these and more. the Bible has no use
in Orthodoxy since it is not obeyed.
Post by matt001
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them. who then is kidding who ?
I have already told you that I do not intend to exchange proof texts
with you. You use the bible as if it were a sort of magical oracle. In
fact, your approach to it is very similar to that of an extreme muslim
to the Qur'an.
here again you've changed the subject to off topic... you respond to a subject line saying the
Orthodox can not supply a verse out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to make graven images
and change the Bible to a " magical oracle. "  the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge but you've instead called God's Word a filthy name... you blaspheme your way through a false
religion which is common among idol worshipers.
You are, as usual, very quick to condemn and label others. I never
said that the bible is a magic oracle, but that you treat it as one.
As to your comment "the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge", I will repear myself yet again. The Holy Scriptures make no
"charge", only you do. I will not exchange scripture passages with
you.
you say so but i'm only following what God commands the elect to do... and that is... to shame idol
worshipers, Eph. 5:11-13. so you are wrong to say " the Holy Scriptures make no charge, only you
do. " there it is in black and white in Eph. 5:11-13... but so is God's command not to worship dead
people, their body parts, relics and God by graven images of Him in black and white.
Post by matt001
i doubt if you know anything about " extreme Muslim's. "  you simply attend a religion based on the
word of man and not the Word of God, the Bible, and because you have nothing to do with the Bible
you speak down to it.  it's a " magical oracle " in your system of beliefs.
This is all just an attempt to deflect criticism, so I will not
respond except to say that I do not "talk down to the bible"--I simply
refuse to demean it by discussing it with you.
you protect idol worship and this is completely contrary to the Word of God to have anything to do
with idols, 1 Jn. 5:21. this is how you demean God's Word... by presenting yourself as Christian
when not a passage of Holy Scripture commands us to worship dead people and idols of them.

Orthodoxy is a religion based on the worship of the dead. it teaches children that the way to God
in Christ is through the worship of the dead and graven images of the dead. God commands this be
exposed, Eph. 5:11-13. and this is why you take offense at the Word of God and anyone posting the
Word of God where God speaks in the Bible against idol worshipers.
Post by matt001
Post by matt001
Magic is magic, even when it tries to masquerade as Christianity.
" magic " is what idol worship is all about.  making statues and pictures of dead people and giving
to the dead the attributes of the Living God.  its all over the Internet... the Orthodox worship
pictures of Mary and give to her the attributes of God.  to suppose she hears from heaven, is magic.
Again, an utter refusal to consider the possibility that what was
written applies to you, by attempting to turn the criticism around and
aim it at others. I don't care what you think about my faith. Whether
or not I am, in your opinion, an idol worshipper does not change the
fact that you are definitely one and that you have turned the bible
into an idol.
here again when the Word of God commands us to reprove idol worshipers the idol worshipers take
offense and try to make anyone posting out of God's Word His condemnation of idol worshipers the bad
guy. this is quite normal since idol worshipers, from childhood, are taught by other idol
worshipers that idol worship is the way to salvation.
Post by matt001
idol worshipers are not redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and will have their part in the
Lake of Fire, Rev.21:8.  this is why they get their religious " truth " from other idol worshipers.
they will have nothing to do with the Bible except to troll out of it names and parts of doctrines
as this respondent demonstrates by his defense of idol worship... all of the glory due the Living
God goes instead, to idols
You make the pope look humble. You have set yourself up as a judge and
spend your time condemning others, using your idol, which you believe
that you are capable of interpretaing and understanding without error.
BTW, which protestant translation of the Scriptures do you use? Are
you capable of reading them in the original languages? And to
forstall your repsonse, yes, I know both Hebrew and Greek.
the pope is an idol worshiper... that's no secret.

again, God commands us to reprove idol worshipers, Eph. 5:11-13.
if you find that this too offends your practice of mixing idols in with what Christianity is all
about, then why not offer a passage where God commands us to serve graven images instead of beating
around the bush ? justify your great claims of idol worship being God's Commandment for us to do
out of the Holy Scripture.

if you knew Hebrew and Greek as far as the Word of God is concerned, you wouldn't be defending idol
worship. but what i am makes no difference, its what does the Bible say that counts. in either
language God's Word is written in, idol worship is condemned by Him. idol worshipers are just as
condemned in * every * language the Word of God is translated into. there's no getting around this.

the charge of the Holy Scriptures being my idol is interesting. here we have a respondent who
offers only the word of man in response to God's Word telling us idol worshipers will terminate in
the Lake of Fire since they are not redeemed, Rev. 21:8 and 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and then the respondent
turns the Word of God into an idol. this is how the respondent views the Word of God... as just
another idol.

so, if you have a passage telling us from the Bible where God commands us to serve graven images of
dead people, their body parts, their relics and even graven images of God Himself, please do share
them instead of avoiding the charge made in my original post. so far, you've avoided such. you've
just went round and round avoiding God's Word. when will you produce a passage where God commands
us to serve graven images of dead people, their body parts, their so called relics and even graven
images of Himself ?
raven1
2010-12-02 12:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
bringing your attention to your motive of replying off topic is hardly a personal attack.  
I disagree. Your reply was every bit as "ad hominem" as my own post;
perhaps more so
the crux
of the matter is that you can not supply a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands us to
make graven images of Himself nor dead humans and pray to them.  but you decided to speak out
anyway, off topic, and use my post as a spring board for a personal attack.
I am growing tired of repeating myself. You and I have completely
different understandings of what the bible is, how to interpret it,
etc. Given this, it makes no sense for us to fire scripture verses at
each other. Are you able to understand this?
an amazing statement, indeed. all of the elect believe the same things as far as Holy Scripture is
concerned, Jn. 16:13.
A simple "no" would have sufficed.
matt001
2010-12-02 14:03:51 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 2, 7:18 am, old man joe <***@home.001> wrote:

<snip>
Post by old man joe
case in point, you haven't offered any Holy Scripture to counter what God says in His Word
concerning the worship of dead people, their body parts, and all of the graven images the Orthodox
are famous for worshiping.  so it's far, far away from the truth for you to say we " fire scripture
verses at each other. "  you're not offering any Scripture whatsoever in reply to my original post.
I didn't say that we "fire scripture verses at each other" but that I
refused to do so. "Offering scripture" in reply to your proof texts is
playing by your rules. As I have said over and over again, there is no
point in quoting scripture at you when we are in profound disagreement
as to what scripture is and how it can and should be interpreted.

<snip>
Post by old man joe
again, you have not supplied a single passage out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to worship
dead people, their body parts, dead Mary, and graven images of these and more.  the Bible has no use
in Orthodoxy since it is not obeyed.
See my answer above. What the bible says it says. What YOU say the
bible says is your own twisted and self-serving interpretation of it.

<snip>
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
You are, as usual, very quick to condemn and label others. I never
said that the bible is a magic oracle, but that you treat it as one.
As to your comment "the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge", I will repear myself yet again. The Holy Scriptures make no
"charge", only you do. I will not exchange scripture passages with
you.
you say so but i'm only following what God commands the elect to do... and that is... to shame idol
worshipers, Eph. 5:11-13.  so you are wrong to say " the Holy Scriptures make no charge, only you
do. "  there it is in black and white in Eph. 5:11-13... but so is God's command not to worship dead
people, their body parts, relics and God by graven images of Him in black and white.
What makes you so sure that you are one of "the elect" and that these
verses from Ephesians are directed to you? And please speak for
yourself; don't reply with more out-of-context scriptural quotes.
Post by old man joe
you protect idol worship and this is completely contrary to the Word of God to have anything to do
with idols, 1 Jn. 5:21.  this is how you demean God's Word... by presenting yourself as Christian
when not a passage of Holy Scripture commands us to worship dead people and idols of them.  
Orthodoxy is a religion based on the worship of the dead.  it teaches children that the way to God
in Christ is through the worship of the dead and graven images of the dead.  God commands this be
exposed, Eph. 5:11-13.  and this is why you take offense at the Word of God and anyone posting the
Word of God where God speaks in the Bible against idol worshipers.
Well, you certainly seem to have Orthodoxy all figured out. I could
try to explain to you why our practices are not idolotrous, but you
are impervious to rational persuasion. You have decided that you know
what a few passages from the NT mean and how they apply to us and you
are confident that your understanding and interpretation of scripture
are absolutely right. This is not wisdom, it is delusion. As another
poster pointed out elsewhere in this thread, a little humility
wouldn't do you any harm. We are all sinners, you included, and NONE
of us is infallible. Nobody made you an infallible interpreter of the
scriptures.

<snip>
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
You make the pope look humble. You have set yourself up as a judge and
spend your time condemning others, using your idol, which you believe
that you are capable of interpretaing and understanding without error.
BTW, which protestant translation of the Scriptures do you use? Are
you capable of reading them in the original languages?  And to
forstall your repsonse, yes, I know both Hebrew and Greek.
the pope is an idol worshiper... that's no secret.  
Nonsense.
Post by old man joe
again, God commands us to reprove idol worshipers, Eph. 5:11-13.  
if you find that this too offends your practice of mixing idols in with what Christianity is all
about, then why not offer a passage where God commands us to serve graven images instead of beating
around the bush ?  justify your great claims of idol worship being God's Commandment for us to do
out of the Holy Scripture.
You really like that little passage from Ephesians, don't you? You
know perfectly well that there is no passage in the sciptures that
"commands us to serve graven images" and neither we nor the Roman
Catholics do so. The important thing is that this passage--and indeed
the rest of scripture-- is not directed to YOU. YOU are not commanded
to do anything, except in your own deluded imagination.
Post by old man joe
if you knew Hebrew and Greek as far as the Word of God is concerned, you wouldn't be defending idol
worship.  but what i am makes no difference, its what does the Bible say that counts.  in either
language God's Word is written in, idol worship is condemned by Him.  idol worshipers are just as
condemned in * every * language the Word of God is translated into.  there's no getting around this.
It is not up to you to decide what the scriptures condemn.
Post by old man joe
the charge of the Holy Scriptures being my idol is interesting.  here we have a respondent who
offers only the word of man in response to God's Word telling us idol worshipers will terminate in
the Lake of Fire since they are not redeemed, Rev. 21:8 and 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and then the respondent
turns the Word of God into an idol.  this is how the respondent views the Word of God... as just
another idol.
What you call "the Word of God" is nothing but passages of scripture
misunderstood and quoted out-of-context by you.
Post by old man joe
so, if you have a passage telling us from the Bible where God commands us to serve graven images of
dead people, their body parts, their relics and even graven images of God Himself, please do share
them instead of avoiding the charge made in my original post.  so far, you've avoided such.  you've
just went round and round avoiding God's Word.  when will you produce a passage where God commands
us to serve graven images of dead people, their body parts, their so called relics and even graven
images of Himself ?
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
old man joe
2010-12-03 10:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by old man joe
case in point, you haven't offered any Holy Scripture to counter what God says in His Word
concerning the worship of dead people, their body parts, and all of the graven images the Orthodox
are famous for worshiping.  so it's far, far away from the truth for you to say we " fire scripture
verses at each other. "  you're not offering any Scripture whatsoever in reply to my original post.
I didn't say that we "fire scripture verses at each other" but that I
refused to do so. "Offering scripture" in reply to your proof texts is
playing by your rules. As I have said over and over again, there is no
point in quoting scripture at you when we are in profound disagreement
as to what scripture is and how it can and should be interpreted.
<snip>
Post by old man joe
again, you have not supplied a single passage out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to worship
dead people, their body parts, dead Mary, and graven images of these and more.  the Bible has no use
in Orthodoxy since it is not obeyed.
See my answer above. What the bible says it says. What YOU say the
bible says is your own twisted and self-serving interpretation of it.
<snip>
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
You are, as usual, very quick to condemn and label others. I never
said that the bible is a magic oracle, but that you treat it as one.
As to your comment "the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge", I will repear myself yet again. The Holy Scriptures make no
"charge", only you do. I will not exchange scripture passages with
you.
you say so but i'm only following what God commands the elect to do... and that is... to shame idol
worshipers, Eph. 5:11-13.  so you are wrong to say " the Holy Scriptures make no charge, only you
do. "  there it is in black and white in Eph. 5:11-13... but so is God's command not to worship dead
people, their body parts, relics and God by graven images of Him in black and white.
What makes you so sure that you are one of "the elect" and that these
verses from Ephesians are directed to you? And please speak for
yourself; don't reply with more out-of-context scriptural quotes.
Post by old man joe
you protect idol worship and this is completely contrary to the Word of God to have anything to do
with idols, 1 Jn. 5:21.  this is how you demean God's Word... by presenting yourself as Christian
when not a passage of Holy Scripture commands us to worship dead people and idols of them.  
Orthodoxy is a religion based on the worship of the dead.  it teaches children that the way to God
in Christ is through the worship of the dead and graven images of the dead.  God commands this be
exposed, Eph. 5:11-13.  and this is why you take offense at the Word of God and anyone posting the
Word of God where God speaks in the Bible against idol worshipers.
Well, you certainly seem to have Orthodoxy all figured out. I could
try to explain to you why our practices are not idolotrous, but you
are impervious to rational persuasion. You have decided that you know
what a few passages from the NT mean and how they apply to us and you
are confident that your understanding and interpretation of scripture
are absolutely right. This is not wisdom, it is delusion. As another
poster pointed out elsewhere in this thread, a little humility
wouldn't do you any harm. We are all sinners, you included, and NONE
of us is infallible. Nobody made you an infallible interpreter of the
scriptures.
<snip>
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
You make the pope look humble. You have set yourself up as a judge and
spend your time condemning others, using your idol, which you believe
that you are capable of interpretaing and understanding without error.
BTW, which protestant translation of the Scriptures do you use? Are
you capable of reading them in the original languages?  And to
forstall your repsonse, yes, I know both Hebrew and Greek.
the pope is an idol worshiper... that's no secret.  
Nonsense.
Post by old man joe
again, God commands us to reprove idol worshipers, Eph. 5:11-13.  
if you find that this too offends your practice of mixing idols in with what Christianity is all
about, then why not offer a passage where God commands us to serve graven images instead of beating
around the bush ?  justify your great claims of idol worship being God's Commandment for us to do
out of the Holy Scripture.
You really like that little passage from Ephesians, don't you? You
know perfectly well that there is no passage in the sciptures that
"commands us to serve graven images" and neither we nor the Roman
Catholics do so. The important thing is that this passage--and indeed
the rest of scripture-- is not directed to YOU. YOU are not commanded
to do anything, except in your own deluded imagination.
Post by old man joe
if you knew Hebrew and Greek as far as the Word of God is concerned, you wouldn't be defending idol
worship.  but what i am makes no difference, its what does the Bible say that counts.  in either
language God's Word is written in, idol worship is condemned by Him.  idol worshipers are just as
condemned in * every * language the Word of God is translated into.  there's no getting around this.
It is not up to you to decide what the scriptures condemn.
Post by old man joe
the charge of the Holy Scriptures being my idol is interesting.  here we have a respondent who
offers only the word of man in response to God's Word telling us idol worshipers will terminate in
the Lake of Fire since they are not redeemed, Rev. 21:8 and 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and then the respondent
turns the Word of God into an idol.  this is how the respondent views the Word of God... as just
another idol.
What you call "the Word of God" is nothing but passages of scripture
misunderstood and quoted out-of-context by you.
Post by old man joe
so, if you have a passage telling us from the Bible where God commands us to serve graven images of
dead people, their body parts, their relics and even graven images of God Himself, please do share
them instead of avoiding the charge made in my original post.  so far, you've avoided such.  you've
just went round and round avoiding God's Word.  when will you produce a passage where God commands
us to serve graven images of dead people, their body parts, their so called relics and even graven
images of Himself ?
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
Alan Ferris
2010-12-03 10:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
So don't do it then.

--
Ferrit

()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
matt001
2010-12-03 16:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
And you have ignored my assertion that the Holy Scriptures are not
addressed to YOU. There are NO divine commandments that are addressed
to YOU. The bible is not YOUR book.

I think that we have made our repsective points and are just repeating
ourselves. There is no longer amy point to this discussion.
matt001
2010-12-03 20:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
And you have ignored my assertion that the Holy Scriptures are not
addressed to YOU. There are NO divine commandments that are addressed
to YOU. The bible is not YOUR book.
I think that we have made our repsective points and are just repeating
ourselves. There is no longer amy point to this discussion.
Just hoping to bring an end to this.
old man joe
2010-12-05 10:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
And you have ignored my assertion that the Holy Scriptures are not
addressed to YOU. There are NO divine commandments that are addressed
to YOU. The bible is not YOUR book.
error : to whom what God speaking when He said... " Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man
be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ... to the man in the moon ?

to whom was God speaking when He gave the 10 Commandments ? the man in the moon or was He speaking
to you and to me ?
Post by matt001
I think that we have made our repsective points and are just repeating
ourselves. There is no longer amy point to this discussion.
matt001
2010-12-05 13:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
And you have ignored my assertion that the Holy Scriptures are not
addressed to YOU. There are NO divine commandments that are addressed
to YOU. The bible is not YOUR book.
error :  to whom what God speaking when He said... " Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man
be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ...  to the man in the moon ?
He was speaking to Nicodemus. You are not an infallible interpreter of
scripture.
to whom was God speaking when He gave the 10 Commandments ?  the man in the moon or was He speaking
to you and to me ?
He was speaking to the people of Israel, not you or me. Again, you are
not an infallible interpreter of scripture..

<snip>
old man joe
2010-12-06 11:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans... nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
And you have ignored my assertion that the Holy Scriptures are not
addressed to YOU. There are NO divine commandments that are addressed
to YOU. The bible is not YOUR book.
error :  to whom what God speaking when He said... " Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man
be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ...  to the man in the moon ?
He was speaking to Nicodemus. You are not an infallible interpreter of
scripture.
error : Christ is ( not was ) speaking to all mankind when He says " you must be born again. "
otherwise, only dead Nicodemus could, out of all mankind, be saved, which of course means your
religion is not founded upon God's Way of salvation but rather, that which ignores God.

you theology is based on race... if a person is not an Israelite then they don't have to obey God...
you're a racist.
Post by matt001
to whom was God speaking when He gave the 10 Commandments ?  the man in the moon or was He speaking
to you and to me ?
He was speaking to the people of Israel, not you or me. Again, you are
not an infallible interpreter of scripture..
so you are saying the 10 Commandments have no meaning to you and you don't have to obey God...
selective obedience is the hallmark of reprobation. Ps. 66:3. there were Gentiles among the Hebrews
when God gave the 10 Commandments and the 10 Commandments are reiterated in the NT... but in your
idea of what salvation is all about, God was speaking only to Jews and Greeks in the NT so you don't
have to obey God in that case, either.

" He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in
him. " 1 Jn. 2:4
Post by matt001
<snip>
matt001
2010-12-06 13:23:24 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 6, 6:06 am, old man joe <***@home.001> wrote:

Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
raven1
2010-12-07 01:27:52 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 05:23:24 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
I'm inclined to agree. Everyone has beliefs that are irrational to one
extent or another, but "Old Man Joe" increasingly seems to be out
there in Full Canvas Jacket territory.
old man joe
2010-12-08 12:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
if my reply is irrational, why are you unable to give Holy Scripture to correct me ?...

because its normal for idol worshipers to hate God and His elect, Jn. 15:19, and expose the shame
they have for Jesus Christ by continually avoiding His Word, the Bible. Isa. 8:20.
raven1
2010-12-08 13:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
if my reply is irrational, why are you unable to give Holy Scripture to correct me ?...
<Boggle>

The sad thing is that you probably asked that in all sincerity.

</Boggle>
old man joe
2010-12-09 12:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
if my reply is irrational, why are you unable to give Holy Scripture to correct me ?...
<Boggle>
The sad thing is that you probably asked that in all sincerity.
</Boggle>
i'm just a mere human subject to all the flaws of human beings... God's Word is what counts,
therefore i post His Word in reference to this fellows blasphemous theology because we are commanded
to do so as in Eph. 5:11; 1 Tim. 5:20.

this fellow wants everyone on their knees praying to dead people all the while pretending to be
Christian and he defends idol worship and the teaching of children to worship idols as well.

God's Word points out exactly who we are to worship and in exactly which way but this fellow calls
God a liar in his defense of idol worship. such requires answering his posts so that it may be the
Living God, and not his deaf, dumb and blind graven images of the dead, will show mercy.

beginning in Jn. 8:31 God tells us that " the truth shall make you free. " ( v.32 ) these idol
worshipers speak against everything God ever says about idol worship thus calling God a liar.
such is not Christ like at all, but they do it anyway.
raven1
2010-12-09 14:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by raven1
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
if my reply is irrational, why are you unable to give Holy Scripture to correct me ?...
<Boggle>
The sad thing is that you probably asked that in all sincerity.
</Boggle>
i'm just a mere human subject to all the flaws of human beings...
Complete irrationality being the most prominent.
Post by old man joe
God's Word is what counts,
Q.E.D.
Post by old man joe
therefore i post His Word in reference to this fellows blasphemous theology because we are commanded
to do so as in Eph. 5:11; 1 Tim. 5:20.
As I have noted before, your worship of the Bible instead of God is
blasphemous, and many of your positions are heretical vis-a-vis
mainstream Christianity.
pyotr filipivich
2010-12-19 21:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by raven1
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
if my reply is irrational, why are you unable to give Holy Scripture to correct me ?...
<Boggle>
The sad thing is that you probably asked that in all sincerity.
</Boggle>
i'm just a mere human subject to all the flaws of human beings... God's Word is what counts,
therefore i post His Word in reference to this fellows blasphemous theology because we are commanded
to do so as in Eph. 5:11; 1 Tim. 5:20.
Sorry joe, but you post what are your opinions of what the
Christian Scriptures mean. And you are working from a redacted
condensed edition of the Christians' Bible, which doesn't help your
case at all.
--
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
duke
2010-12-20 12:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by old man joe
Post by raven1
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Your reply is so completely irrational, that I see no point in
attempting to carry on any further discussion with you.
if my reply is irrational, why are you unable to give Holy Scripture to correct me ?...
<Boggle>
The sad thing is that you probably asked that in all sincerity.
</Boggle>
i'm just a mere human subject to all the flaws of human beings... God's Word is what counts,
therefore i post His Word in reference to this fellows blasphemous theology because we are commanded
to do so as in Eph. 5:11; 1 Tim. 5:20.
Sorry joe, but you post what are your opinions of what the
Christian Scriptures mean. And you are working from a redacted
condensed edition of the Christians' Bible, which doesn't help your
case at all.
Right, he's clueless.

The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
RVG
2010-12-06 08:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
error : to whom what God speaking when He said... " Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man
be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ... to the man in the moon ?
That was comic-book character Jesus the Nazarene.
Post by old man joe
to whom was God speaking when He gave the 10 Commandments ? the man in the moon or was He speaking
to you and to me ?
That was comic-book character Moses of Egypt.
--
Internet is People

http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
pyotr filipivich
2010-12-03 17:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
so, if you have a passage telling us from the Bible where God commands us to serve graven images of
dead people, their body parts, their relics and even graven images of God Himself, please do share
them instead of avoiding the charge made in my original post.  so far, you've avoided such.  you've
just went round and round avoiding God's Word.  when will you produce a passage where God commands
us to serve graven images of dead people, their body parts, their so called relics and even graven
images of Himself ?
We do not "serve" any othe the things you mention, any more than you
"serve" the photographs of your family that you have in your home.
Your biblical quotes about idolotry do not apply to Orthodox and Roman
Catholic religious practices.
again... you have not supplied a single passage of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to
dead humans...
There again, you repeat a false accusation, based on your willful
ignorance. Because it is obvious that you are not able to accept that
all that is holy is not an object of worship. It is your assumption
that all respect offered to the departed is worship, and that is your
error. Repeating your erroneous accusations does nothing more than
demonstrate that you know nothing of what you are talking about.
Post by old man joe
nor to make graven images of them so as to put a face on the dead humans the Orthodox
pray to... just as the subject line points out.
And once again, joe has to demonstrate that he is not after truth,
but in lying about those who do not agree with his one true and only
way of reading the bible.

Once can only conclude, that joe, like the Mohammedans, has no
depictions of the human forms in his possession, save for those on the
heathen idols he is forced to use as currency.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
P A &amp; HA
2010-12-01 13:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible, not
God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same person--a
complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
bringing your attention to your motive of replying off topic is hardly a personal attack.  the crux
of the matter is that you can not supply a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands us to
make graven images of Himself nor dead humans and pray to them.  but you decided to speak out
anyway, off topic, and use my post as a spring board for a personal attack.
this is exactly how idol worshipers react to the God of the Bible, Dan.3... they try to justify
themselves at the expense of the poster... this comes from their feeling inferior within themselves.
Post by matt001
Post by old man joe
and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them. who then is kidding who ?
I have already told you that I do not intend to exchange proof texts
with you. You use the bible as if it were a sort of magical oracle. In
fact, your approach to it is very similar to that of an extreme muslim
to the Qur'an.
here again you've changed the subject to off topic... you respond to a subject line saying the
Orthodox can not supply a verse out of Holy Scripture where God commands us to make graven images
and change the Bible to a " magical oracle. "  the subject calls for Holy Scripture to answer the
charge but you've instead called God's Word a filthy name... you blaspheme your way through a false
religion which is common among idol worshipers.
i doubt if you know anything about " extreme Muslim's. "  you simply attend a religion based on the
word of man and not the Word of God, the Bible, and because you have nothing to do with the Bible
you speak down to it.  it's a " magical oracle " in your system of beliefs.
Post by matt001
Magic is magic, even when it tries to masquerade as Christianity.
" magic " is what idol worship is all about.  making statues and pictures of dead people and giving
to the dead the attributes of the Living God.  its all over the Internet... the Orthodox worship
pictures of Mary and give to her the attributes of God.  to suppose she hears from heaven, is magic.
idol worshipers are not redeemed in the here and now, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, and will have their part in the
Lake of Fire, Rev.21:8.  this is why they get their religious " truth " from other idol worshipers.
they will have nothing to do with the Bible except to troll out of it names and parts of doctrines
as this respondent demonstrates by his defense of idol worship... all of the glory due the Living
God goes instead, to idols.
I'm not aware of orthodox serving idols. I know the clergy serve the
divine liturgy. Afterward they, orthodox, will serve coffee, cake,
savoury dishes and the like. Idols tend to be made of inedible
substances and therefore not a good way to break the fast after the
liturgy.

Really old man joe, get your facts right before you start digging a
hole for yourself to fall into. Just remember that all have sinned and
fallen short of the glory of the Lord, which includes you as well as
me and all on this newsgroup. If you sincerely believe that you have
it all right and that you will on the dread day of judgement be one of
those who will judge others, then you need to exercise another godly
virtue of humility. A good way of doing that is by saying a prayer
from the new testament, "Jesus, Son of david, have mercy on me a
sinner." I'm sure that it will help you to gain some perspective
before your call up.
Less religion, more light
2010-12-01 21:05:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:45:06 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
Post by raven1
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:36:27 -0800 (PST), matt001
Post by matt001
<snip>
Post by raven1
Thanks for once again demonstrating that you worship the Bible,
not God.- Hide quoted text -
"Less religion, more light" and "Old Man Joe" are the same
person--a complete looney tune.
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ?
It was an honest mistake. As for "inferiority complexes", you respond
to what you characterize as a personal attack with a personal attack.
bringing your attention to your motive of replying off topic is
hardly a personal attack. the crux of the matter is that you can not
supply a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands us to
make graven images of Himself nor dead humans and pray to them. but
you decided to speak out anyway, off topic, and use my post as a
spring board for a personal attack.
Here's a better question to ask.
Is the Christian Bible 100% the word of God?
This question potentially renders your topic and similar ones meaningless
and irrelevant.
Steve Hayes
2010-12-01 01:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
need to make a personal attack to hide your inferiority complex ? and you still haven't supplied a
single verse of Holy Scripture whereas God commands us to pray to dead people and serve idols of
them. who then is kidding who ?
How about you show us the verse where God commands us to slander and bear
false witness against our neighbour?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
Less religion, more light
2010-11-30 06:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:43:10 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship
dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4
not...
" ... every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of those who speak for their idols of
dead people. "
Last time I checked Jesus was a dead person from our essential point of
view.
Jesus Christ is The Living God, Jn. 1:1; what have you " checked " in
order for you to say in your
" essential point of view " He is dead ? you are saying " God is dead, "
which is the same as
saying... " there is no God. "
What exactly is a living God? Please describe. I bet you can't. Is he a
humanoid? Spirit? What is a spirit?
And we are talking about two different beings, the old testament God, and
Jesus.
We haven't heard from either in 2000 years.
Noah, Abraham and Moses used to be able to talk to the OT God directly.
Adam walked with him.
Many direct actions were carried out allegedly.
Looks like they're gone to me.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if the writings about him were corrupted by people and negative
entities?
God tells us exactly how His Word the Bible came to us in Jer. 36:1-8.
the Word of God isn't
founded upon " what if, " Jn. 7:17.
Jeremiah 36 talks about some scrolls with unknown content that were dictated
by a Lord (authoritarian individual. Many high profile people were called
Lords back then as they are now).

Did you really think that the Bible was dictated? It is said to be inspired,
not dictated.
And how much of it is inspired nobody even knows.
How convenient it would be if we just had a divine text book with all of
life's answers. We'd never have to think for ourselves. Our brains would
shrivel up. We just be robots having only to obey and nothing else.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if our understandings of Christ's mission were misunderstood to
begin with?
if that were the case than there is no such thing as truth in this
world...
Yes there is, but Christianity didn't find it millennia ago.
Even the apostles didn't understand what Jesus was talking about most of the
time.
Many of us spiritual adepts now know what God is, but you wouldn't be able
to accept it if I told you.
might as well burn the
Post by old man joe
Bible as the Catholics did, and God was wrong to say of Himself... " Jesus
saith unto him, I am the
way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "
Jn. 14:6.
Do you understand what Jesus was saying? I bet you don't.
He wasn't saying to worship him. That certainly wouldn't help anyone.
Post by old man joe
and again... " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is
the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. " Jn. 20:31.
and again... " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God. " Ro. 10:17.
Pious words from an ancient pious individual who likely didn't know what he
was talking about and didn't know what a God was.
Post by old man joe
to misunderstand Christs mission is to have been passed by for salvation because He says...
" And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " Jn.
8:32 those who are not
" free " are those who find the Word of God to be " foolishness. " 1 Cor.
1:18. they are still
bound by Satan, sin and death.
Passed by for salvation? If your children were about to jump off a bridge,
would you just pass them by and let them jump because they didn't love and
worship you?
I don't think so.
Christianity is quite silly when you think about it.
You sound like you're very cloistered.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Then Christianity is wrong about God from day one. Can you handle that
possibility?
this is an amazing statement. salvation is based on what God has done for
man; not on what man has
done towards God, Ro. 10:20. Christ came to seek and to save, Lk. 19:10,
not man came to seek and
to save himself. where Christianity is wrong about God it is because
those calling themselves
Christian are not founding their religion on the Word of God, Ps. 66:3.
What exactly is the word of God? A book? Your book?
The Muslims and countless other religions emphatically claim that their book
is the word of God too. You can't all be right.

Christ came to teach us to how to become like him and God. He didn't come to
save us. He doesn't want to take away our self responsibility. That's the
false lemmings minded understanding.
Think about it. Why would God create a bunch of dumb and wicked lemmings
that need saving from themselves? If we were made in his image then he must
be dumb and wicked too.
There is another truth here, but you wouldn't be able to accept or
comprehend it because you're too backward and too fanatical in your
doctrine.
Post by old man joe
what then are the idol worshipers founding their religion upon ?... it
certainly is not what God
says in His Word, the Bible. God speaks strongly against idol worship but
the idol worshipers carry
on with their folly anyway... they simply don't believe God... the Word of
God has no meaning in
their lives. otherwise, they would be keeping His Commandments which
shows they are of God and that
they love Him, but they don't. Jn. 14:21. instead, the idol worshipers
troll names and parts of
doctrines out of the Bible and give to dead people the attributes of God.
God is the God of truth. His Word is truth. one of the many Names of
Jesus Christ is, Truth. the
idol worshipers do rather worship dead people, which is completely
contrary to the Word of God,
De. 18:9-14 for example. such is not Christianity at all. this is why
God declares idol worshipers
are not redeemed, 1 Cor. 6:9,10.
Your book and the Muslim's book and all the other religious books can't all
be the word of God as its followers zealously claim.
Jesus was the word of God (word made flesh). Your Bible however does contain
some human accounts of the word of God (Jesus).
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Maybe you have to go beyond just obsessing over one book from one part of
the world to find God.
i don't obsess over the one Book, the Bible, and neither does any of the
elect. the sum of His Word
is Truth, Ps. 119:160. there is no place else to learn the truth about
the Living God except from
His Word, the Bible; otherwise, Jesus was lying when He says of Himself...
" I am the Way, the Truth
and the Life... " where else do we find exactly His gospel except from
His own mouth which is
faithfully recorded for us in His Word, the Bible by His holy prophets ?
2 Pet.1:21.
certainly not from the religions of the world.
but there's more than that. His Holy Spirit indwells His elect, Jn.
14:17, and teaches His elect
out of His Word, the Bible, Jn.16:13. not so for the unredeemed, Jn.
14:17. these are the tares...
the pretenders of salvation. they will always pervert the Word of God
since there is no Light in
them, Isa. 8:20.
The way you talk you belong back in the 15th century.
I bet you didn't receive much of an education.
old man joe
2010-11-30 12:38:30 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:34:14 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:43:10 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:06:34 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
The Bible is your idol.
can't supply a verse out of the Bible whereas God commands us to worship
dead people and idols made
in their image ? i didn't think so.
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " Mt. 4:4
not...
" ... every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of those who speak for
their idols of
dead people. "
Last time I checked Jesus was a dead person from our essential point of
view.
Jesus Christ is The Living God, Jn. 1:1; what have you " checked " in
order for you to say in your
" essential point of view " He is dead ? you are saying " God is dead, "
which is the same as
saying... " there is no God. "
What exactly is a living God? Please describe. I bet you can't. Is he a
humanoid? Spirit? What is a spirit?
And we are talking about two different beings, the old testament God, and
Jesus.
We haven't heard from either in 2000 years.
Noah, Abraham and Moses used to be able to talk to the OT God directly.
Adam walked with him.
Many direct actions were carried out allegedly.
Looks like they're gone to me.
who God is and what He's all about is found in just one place, in Holy Scripture.

there is One God who is the same, yesterday, today and forever, Heb. 13:8.

it'd be proper to say " you " haven't heard from Him, not " we " haven't heard... God is redeeming
His elect and will continue to be redeeming His elect right up to the Last day.

the Lord God dwells in everyone one of His elect, Jn. 17; Ro. 8:16. the elect " talk " with God,
not to God but with the Living God as they read, study and ponder His Word, Ps. 119

sounds like you are saying that God can not be known on a personal One to one basis. this is not
true at all; Jn. 17 for example. for those whom Christ paid the penalty of their sins God Himself
comes to abode in His truly elect... that's what redemption and eternal life is all about... our
sins make a separation between us and the Living God so He does not hear us but when He redeem's the
sinner of His choice, a One to one living relationship is realized in every moment of the believers
life. not a one way street at all.
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if the writings about him were corrupted by people and negative
entities?
God tells us exactly how His Word the Bible came to us in Jer. 36:1-8.
the Word of God isn't
founded upon " what if, " Jn. 7:17.
Jeremiah 36 talks about some scrolls with unknown content that were dictated
by a Lord (authoritarian individual. Many high profile people were called
Lords back then as they are now).
no. in Jer.36:1 the word LORD appears in all capital letters. the translators did this in order to
substitute the word " YHWH " ... pronounced " Jehovah " by using the Name LORD, this appears some 7
thousand times in the OT. it can be shown from the Bible that Jehovah is none other than Jesus
Christ.
Post by Less religion, more light
Did you really think that the Bible was dictated? It is said to be inspired,
not dictated.
yes. the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures was dictated by God Himself to His select prophets just
as we read in Jer. 36:1-8. the Bible word " inspired " simply means " God-breathed, " as in 2 Tim.
3:16... " All scripture is given by inspiration of God... "
Post by Less religion, more light
And how much of it is inspired nobody even knows.
How convenient it would be if we just had a divine text book with all of
life's answers. We'd never have to think for ourselves. Our brains would
shrivel up. We just be robots having only to obey and nothing else.
to the contrary... the whole Bible is inspired by God; the 66 Books of the Bible contain the entire
Word of God to us in full. from it is given us the way to life eternal through Jesus Christ or to
eternal death. countless thousands through the millennium have been redeemed by the Word of God...
otherwise, we might as well believe in the Big Bang Theory and Evolution... which both seek to say
there is no purpose at all to us being here.
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if our understandings of Christ's mission were misunderstood to
begin with?
if that were the case than there is no such thing as truth in this
world...
Yes there is, but Christianity didn't find it millennia ago.
Even the apostles didn't understand what Jesus was talking about most of the
time.
all of the apostles misunderstandings disappeared when the promised Holy Spirit was poured out on
the Day of Pentecost... just like today. He indwells His redeemed, Ro. 8:16 teaching us out of
God's Word the Bible, Jn. 16:13.

Christianity is not the Word of God, the Bible is the Word of God. the tares will always
misinterpret God's Word, Jn.14:17 simply because they know of God ( assent ) but do not believe in
God in accordance with His instructions as found in the Bible.

for example, the Apostle Paul before his redemption was so zealous for Judaism that his job was to
kill Jewish Christians. but after his conversion by Christ he was given the task of Apostleship to
the point of beatings, imprisonment, constant harassments and such. from murderer to Apostle of
Christ speaks to the power of God to transform lives from those against Him to those to Him.
Post by Less religion, more light
Many of us spiritual adepts now know what God is, but you wouldn't be able
to accept it if I told you.
you're right about that. once a person is redeemed by the blood of Christ he can never be
unredeemed. the Spirit of the Living God dwells in him showing him the way he is to go out of His
Word. salvation in the Bible is compared to a marriage of which there is no divorce possible by
either party. weak and feeble as we are we do not turn away from His Presence since He is in us,
Jn.14:17.
Post by Less religion, more light
might as well burn the
Post by old man joe
Bible as the Catholics did, and God was wrong to say of Himself... " Jesus
saith unto him, I am the
way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "
Jn. 14:6.
Do you understand what Jesus was saying? I bet you don't.
He wasn't saying to worship him. That certainly wouldn't help anyone.
Post by old man joe
and again... " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is
the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. " Jn. 20:31.
and again... " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God. " Ro. 10:17.
Pious words from an ancient pious individual who likely didn't know what he
was talking about and didn't know what a God was.
Post by old man joe
to misunderstand Christs mission is to have been passed by for salvation
because He says...
" And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " Jn.
8:32 those who are not
" free " are those who find the Word of God to be " foolishness. " 1 Cor.
1:18. they are still
bound by Satan, sin and death.
Passed by for salvation? If your children were about to jump off a bridge,
would you just pass them by and let them jump because they didn't love and
worship you?
I don't think so.
Christianity is quite silly when you think about it.
You sound like you're very cloistered.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Then Christianity is wrong about God from day one. Can you handle that
possibility?
this is an amazing statement. salvation is based on what God has done for
man; not on what man has
done towards God, Ro. 10:20. Christ came to seek and to save, Lk. 19:10,
not man came to seek and
to save himself. where Christianity is wrong about God it is because
those calling themselves
Christian are not founding their religion on the Word of God, Ps. 66:3.
What exactly is the word of God? A book? Your book?
The Muslims and countless other religions emphatically claim that their book
is the word of God too. You can't all be right.
Christ came to teach us to how to become like him and God. He didn't come to
save us. He doesn't want to take away our self responsibility. That's the
false lemmings minded understanding.
Think about it. Why would God create a bunch of dumb and wicked lemmings
that need saving from themselves? If we were made in his image then he must
be dumb and wicked too.
There is another truth here, but you wouldn't be able to accept or
comprehend it because you're too backward and too fanatical in your
doctrine.
Post by old man joe
what then are the idol worshipers founding their religion upon ?... it
certainly is not what God
says in His Word, the Bible. God speaks strongly against idol worship but
the idol worshipers carry
on with their folly anyway... they simply don't believe God... the Word of
God has no meaning in
their lives. otherwise, they would be keeping His Commandments which
shows they are of God and that
they love Him, but they don't. Jn. 14:21. instead, the idol worshipers
troll names and parts of
doctrines out of the Bible and give to dead people the attributes of God.
God is the God of truth. His Word is truth. one of the many Names of
Jesus Christ is, Truth. the
idol worshipers do rather worship dead people, which is completely
contrary to the Word of God,
De. 18:9-14 for example. such is not Christianity at all. this is why
God declares idol worshipers
are not redeemed, 1 Cor. 6:9,10.
Your book and the Muslim's book and all the other religious books can't all
be the word of God as its followers zealously claim.
Jesus was the word of God (word made flesh). Your Bible however does contain
some human accounts of the word of God (Jesus).
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Maybe you have to go beyond just obsessing over one book from one part of
the world to find God.
i don't obsess over the one Book, the Bible, and neither does any of the
elect. the sum of His Word
is Truth, Ps. 119:160. there is no place else to learn the truth about
the Living God except from
His Word, the Bible; otherwise, Jesus was lying when He says of Himself...
" I am the Way, the Truth
and the Life... " where else do we find exactly His gospel except from
His own mouth which is
faithfully recorded for us in His Word, the Bible by His holy prophets ?
2 Pet.1:21.
certainly not from the religions of the world.
but there's more than that. His Holy Spirit indwells His elect, Jn.
14:17, and teaches His elect
out of His Word, the Bible, Jn.16:13. not so for the unredeemed, Jn.
14:17. these are the tares...
the pretenders of salvation. they will always pervert the Word of God
since there is no Light in
them, Isa. 8:20.
The way you talk you belong back in the 15th century.
I bet you didn't receive much of an education.
not much of an education on my part ? it isn't me asking you questions.
raven1
2010-11-30 13:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
to the contrary... the whole Bible is inspired by God;
Without using circular reasoning (ie: quoting the Bible to prove the
Bible), how do you know this?
Post by old man joe
the 66 Books of the Bible contain the entire
Word of God to us in full.
Again, how do you know this, and to which version of the Bible are you
referring? Are you including the Apocrypha that Martin Luther tossed
because parts of them conflicted with his theology?
Post by old man joe
from it is given us the way to life eternal through Jesus Christ or to
eternal death. countless thousands through the millennium have been redeemed by the Word of God...
Or so you claim.
Post by old man joe
otherwise, we might as well believe in the Big Bang Theory and Evolution...
Considering the massive evidence for both, it would be silly not to.
Post by old man joe
which both seek to say
there is no purpose at all to us being here.
No, they don't, Science is silent on the topic of "meaning"; that's
what philosophy and theology are for. But a word to the wise: if your
philosophy or theology conflicts with observed reality, you might want
to re-examine it and figure out where you went wrong, rather than
trying to re-interpret reality to fit your beliefs.
pyotr filipivich
2010-12-02 21:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
Post by old man joe
to the contrary... the whole Bible is inspired by God;
Without using circular reasoning (ie: quoting the Bible to prove the
Bible), how do you know this?
Post by old man joe
the 66 Books of the Bible contain the entire
Word of God to us in full.
Again, how do you know this, and to which version of the Bible are you
referring? Are you including the Apocrypha that Martin Luther tossed
because parts of them conflicted with his theology?
Joe uses the "short canon" - the Canon revised following the
Reformation to accord with that of the Pharisees, and not the one that
all the Church used for over a thousand years, and the Church still
does.
I wonder if joe has read anywhere in his bible about adding or
subtracting from the words of the book. Deuteronomy has the first
such admonition.
--
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
Less religion, more light
2010-11-30 22:48:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:34:14 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:43:10 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Last time I checked Jesus was a dead person from our essential point of
view.
Jesus Christ is The Living God, Jn. 1:1; what have you " checked " in
order for you to say in your
" essential point of view " He is dead ? you are saying " God is dead, "
which is the same as
saying... " there is no God. "
What exactly is a living God? Please describe. I bet you can't. Is he a
humanoid? Spirit? What is a spirit?
And we are talking about two different beings, the old testament God, and
Jesus.
We haven't heard from either in 2000 years.
Noah, Abraham and Moses used to be able to talk to the OT God directly.
Adam walked with him.
Many direct actions were carried out allegedly.
Looks like they're gone to me.
who God is and what He's all about is found in just one place, in Holy Scripture.
That's it. Instead of answering the question properly just point to your
Bible like every other Bible coddler.
Your type can never answer these kinds of questions.
Everyone has different explanations of what God is. You have all made a
tossed salad of the Bible.
Post by old man joe
there is One God who is the same, yesterday, today and forever, Heb. 13:8.
I hear that nice Christian slogan often. Its meaningless.
God is not the same as he was in the old testament days. Back then he was
cruel, callous and war like. Later (Jesus) was very kind, forgiving and a
pacifist.
God changed dramatically. Either that or the OT God and Jesus are not
related at all.
Post by old man joe
it'd be proper to say " you " haven't heard from Him, not " we " haven't
heard... God is redeeming
His elect and will continue to be redeeming His elect right up to the Last day.
You've heard from him? Do you hear voices in your head?

And how do you know God is redeeming "His elect"? Are you his executive
secretary?
And how do you know who are his elect or whether he even has any? Haven't
you heard that he's not a respecter of persons?
Post by old man joe
the Lord God dwells in everyone one of His elect, Jn. 17; Ro. 8:16. the
elect " talk " with God,
not to God but with the Living God as they read, study and ponder His Word, Ps. 119
Yep, just like many others did, including crazies like Jim Jones etc.
Post by old man joe
sounds like you are saying that God can not be known on a personal One to
one basis. this is not
true at all; Jn. 17 for example. for those whom Christ paid the penalty
of their sins God Himself
comes to abode in His truly elect... that's what redemption and eternal
life is all about... our
sins make a separation between us and the Living God so He does not hear
us but when He redeem's the
sinner of His choice, a One to one living relationship is realized in
every moment of the believers
life. not a one way street at all.
People who claim this magical redeeming in their lives show nothing except
just more pronounced religious fanatical behaviour.
I know you just want to put God in a human box so you can work with the
concept. Its only human nature to need to do that.
And I know that you want Jesus to have paid the penalty so that you don't
have to take responsibility for yourself, because it all seems too much and
too foreboding. Relax and lighten up. There's no fire and brimstone at the
end of the tunnel. That was the Catholic church's and their predecessor's
invention to scare people straight.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
And what if the writings about him were corrupted by people and negative
entities?
God tells us exactly how His Word the Bible came to us in Jer. 36:1-8.
the Word of God isn't
founded upon " what if, " Jn. 7:17.
Jeremiah 36 talks about some scrolls with unknown content that were dictated
by a Lord (authoritarian individual. Many high profile people were called
Lords back then as they are now).
no. in Jer.36:1 the word LORD appears in all capital letters. the
translators did this in order to
substitute the word " YHWH " ... pronounced " Jehovah " by using the Name
LORD, this appears some 7
thousand times in the OT. it can be shown from the Bible that Jehovah is
none other than Jesus
Christ.
Impossible, since Jehovah and Jesus had opposite personalities and actions.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Did you really think that the Bible was dictated? It is said to be inspired,
not dictated.
yes. the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures was dictated by God Himself to
His select prophets just
as we read in Jer. 36:1-8. the Bible word " inspired " simply means "
God-breathed, " as in 2 Tim.
3:16... " All scripture is given by inspiration of God... "
That settles it. You're a Bible fanatic. Ask any Bible scholar what they
think of the Bible. They will never claim what you just claimed.
Inspiration and dictation are two completely different things. When
information goes through the human mind it is immediately corrupted by human
ideas.
And God does not speak with verbal words like a radio but through
transferral of ideas, which then mix with human ideas.
The term "God-breathed" was coined much later by evangelists and priests,
and its meaning has never been properly defined by them.
Plus pretty much all of these "God-breathed" zealots contradict each other
on the fundamentals of God and his will.

Here's a question for you that I'm sure you won't like. Was the verse "All
scripture is given by inspiration of God" itself inspired, or was it
perhaps just a belief by the pious writer? Your entire faith hinges on this.
And what scriptures was it referring to, since not all the scriptures
existed at the time that was written, and there were writings that were
excluded from the Bible.
This should get you thinking.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
And how much of it is inspired nobody even knows.
How convenient it would be if we just had a divine text book with all of
life's answers. We'd never have to think for ourselves. Our brains would
shrivel up. We just be robots having only to obey and nothing else.
to the contrary... the whole Bible is inspired by God; the 66 Books of the
Bible contain the entire
Word of God to us in full. from it is given us the way to life eternal
through Jesus Christ or to
eternal death. countless thousands through the millennium have been
redeemed by the Word of God...
otherwise, we might as well believe in the Big Bang Theory and
Evolution... which both seek to say
there is no purpose at all to us being here.
The Big Bang Theory and Evolution are not the only other explanations
available.
The real truth is somewhere in the middle, but the human race still doesn't
have all the details.

And saying that "the whole Bible is inspired by God" is specious and
immature since many writings were excluded. Did God say to exclude those
writings? No. It was the clergy's decision because some writings didn't line
up with their beliefs.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
if that were the case than there is no such thing as truth in this
world...
Yes there is, but Christianity didn't find it millennia ago.
Even the apostles didn't understand what Jesus was talking about most of the
time.
all of the apostles misunderstandings disappeared when the promised Holy
Spirit was poured out on
the Day of Pentecost... just like today.
Got proof of that? Got evidence that we know exactly what the apostles knew
in that moment?
He indwells His redeemed, Ro. 8:16 teaching us out of
Post by old man joe
God's Word the Bible, Jn. 16:13.
Your words are pious twaddle. Your mind has become affected. Cult followers
talk just like you.
Post by old man joe
Christianity is not the Word of God, the Bible is the Word of God.
No. Jesus was the claimed the word of God (word made flesh). The scriptures
are just a set of accounts of it.
And the modern Christian Bible is just a compilation of a selection of
writings.
This just shows how little you know.
the tares will always
Post by old man joe
misinterpret God's Word, Jn.14:17 simply because they know of God (
assent ) but do not believe in
God in accordance with His instructions as found in the Bible.
for example, the Apostle Paul before his redemption was so zealous for
Judaism that his job was to
kill Jewish Christians. but after his conversion by Christ he was given
the task of Apostleship to
the point of beatings, imprisonment, constant harassments and such. from
murderer to Apostle of
Christ speaks to the power of God to transform lives from those against
Him to those to Him.
But there's no evidence that Paul's teachings were ever approved by God as
the truth.
People are free to preach whatever they want and God says nothing.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Many of us spiritual adepts now know what God is, but you wouldn't be able
to accept it if I told you.
you're right about that. once a person is redeemed by the blood of Christ he can never be
unredeemed. the Spirit of the Living God dwells in him showing him the
way he is to go out of His
Word. salvation in the Bible is compared to a marriage of which there is
no divorce possible by
either party. weak and feeble as we are we do not turn away from His
Presence since He is in us,
Jn.14:17.
You say that divorces are not possible, yet they happen every day.
Post by old man joe
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by old man joe
but there's more than that. His Holy Spirit indwells His elect, Jn.
14:17, and teaches His elect
out of His Word, the Bible, Jn.16:13. not so for the unredeemed, Jn.
14:17. these are the tares...
the pretenders of salvation. they will always pervert the Word of God
since there is no Light in
them, Isa. 8:20.
The way you talk you belong back in the 15th century.
I bet you didn't receive much of an education.
not much of an education on my part ? it isn't me asking you questions.
All intelligent people ask questions. That's how they become intelligent.
Only people who's minds are enslaved by a despotic authority figure are too
scared to ask questions. These just become robots and pull-string dolls.
raven1
2010-12-01 01:27:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:48:20 +1100, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Here's a question for you that I'm sure you won't like. Was the verse "All
scripture is given by inspiration of God" itself inspired, or was it
perhaps just a belief by the pious writer? Your entire faith hinges on this.
His faith is in the Bible, not the God that the human authors were
writing about, missing the forest for the trees in spectacular
fashion.
Post by Less religion, more light
And what scriptures was it referring to, since not all the scriptures
existed at the time that was written, and there were writings that were
excluded from the Bible.
Literally dozens of rival Gospels and Apocalypses, for example. Then
there's the Apocrypha, that are included in Catholic Bibles, but
excluded from Protestant versions, because Martin Luther had
theological issues with them.
Post by Less religion, more light
This should get you thinking.
Wildly unlikely on OMJ's part, but your optimism is refreshing.
raven1
2010-12-01 01:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
countless thousands through the millennium have been redeemed by the Word of God..
Epic fail. If your perverse Calvinist doctrine regarding the "elect"
is true, then scripture is useless: it is superfluous to their
redemption if God has already chosen them, and unhelpful for those not
"elected". Have you thought this through at all?
Linards Ticmanis
2010-12-20 08:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Can the so called Orthodox supply a verse of Holy Scripture commanding us to serve idols ?
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.

You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.

But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.

Since you obviously honor and respect the bible (right?), please read
the following verses and think about what they might mean, not
individually but taken together.

Deuteronomy 4,15-16 (looking especially hard at the second half of verse 15)
Gospel of Matthew 13,17
Gospel of John 14,9
First Epistle of John 1,1-3
--
Linards Ticmanis
duke
2010-12-20 12:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linards Ticmanis
Can the so called Orthodox supply a verse of Holy Scripture commanding us to serve idols ?
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.
You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.
But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.
That's his stupid style. I think he's on the payroll at Chick Tracts.
Post by Linards Ticmanis
Since you obviously honor and respect the bible (right?), please read
the following verses and think about what they might mean, not
individually but taken together.
Deuteronomy 4,15-16 (looking especially hard at the second half of verse 15)
Gospel of Matthew 13,17
Gospel of John 14,9
First Epistle of John 1,1-3
The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Linards Ticmanis
2010-12-21 14:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.
You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.
But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.
That's his stupid style. I think he's on the payroll at Chick Tracts.
I find it ironic that those 66-books guys (which of course don't include
all Protestants), in kicking out scriptures, removed some of the
strongest condemnations of idol worship from the bible. Such as the
Epistle of Jeremiah, or the story of the Baal and the dragon in the Book
of Daniel. Why would the Orthodox insist that those are scripture, if
they were so keen on worshiping idols as "old man joe" claims they are?
On the other hand, any idol worshiper would be quite happy to see these
texts removed from the Christian bible.

(I'm removing alt.atheism as I agree with the people of that group that
cross-posting discussions between Christians to there is not courteous.)
--
Linards Ticmanis
infowolf1
2010-12-22 13:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Two points.

One, regarding a Scripture that validates worship of idols, there is
none.
but when Paul warns against participating in idol related feasts, he
warns that while the idols are themselves nothing but objects, behind
them are demons, and when the gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to
demons.

St. john of Damascus, quoting St. Basil the Great, expounds on this
concept, "The honor given to an image reaches to the prototype"
and also since the Incarnation of Christ was God creating an express
image of Hiimself, it is therefore argued that when we give reverence
to Christ THROUGH an image, not TO the image, we are giving
Him proper honor.

(a non sequitur got established, however, that if you reject icons,
then
you reject the Divine Incarnation itself. This is not necessarily the
case.)

so it is on the principle of, what is it that is being reached out to
through
an image? And what kind of worship, sacrificial or the lesser or just
veneration or honor like you might give to a human ruler, giving a
bow,
something that in neither OT nor NT is even addressed, though once
you have someone claiming to be a god you might have a conscience
problem, how do you separate the man and his false claims from his
office?

An idiot woman was cooing online once about how great it was that her
little boy venerated an upright image ina McDonald's of Darth Vader or
someone, as if venerating images, never mind of who, was a wonderful
sign of acquiring Orthodoxy. Not at all. In fact, there is an icon
that
should NEVER be in any church or at least not in reach of veneration.
It is one that shows the devil lurking to tempt Christ, among many
other figures in the icon, and the devil's position in the icon is
damnably near to where people often plant a kiss without thinking
on a picture. One priest warned, you must be careful, you might
end up venerating the devil!

2. regarding worshipping a book, that book was what the ancient
Fathers CONSTANTLY referred to establish the truth. The difference
between them and the heretics, was that they would take ALL
the Scriptures not just cherry pick, and work out the entire
tapestry they make, not some warped mess full of holes.

This is hard work. And it does not involve accepting blindly what you
get from a traditional source, or from a newcomer who pretends to
having access to secret tradition either.

Incidentally, if I read the cascade of quotes right, is joe claiming
that Christ is still dead? Does he deny the Resurrection? Or does
he think it was only some spiritual or semi physical mostly spiritual
thing?

Does not Christ tell us in that Book, that "touch me and see that
I have flesh and bones, not like a spirit?"

Was not the tomb empty?

Joe, you got a problem. (so do some Orthodox but it is a less
serious one, as long as we keep to those traditions that do have
their basis in Scripture. I worry about those that are accepting
the twisting of tradition that denies the sacrifice by Christ to The
Father AND to Himself AND to The All-Holy Spirit being an
atonement. St. John Cassian and St. Athanasius chapter
The Divine Dilemma and its Solution in On the Incarnation make
it clear that indeed it was a sin payment, and the remark about
debt to the grave was poetic only. God decreed the grave, and
burying our debt to God in the grave is just a roundabout way
of speaking of atonement. The Divine Dilemma EXPLICITLY
states that God was having to choose to let His creation go
downhill, or violate His word and His own integrity, or pay
the price Himself to Himself, thus keeping His word and getting
us back, and clearly His love prevailed in doing this, since
if only wrath prevailed He wouldn't have, and if He was without
integrity and broke His word, what safety would we have?

Justina

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/substitutionary_atonement_in_orthodoxy
http://groups.yahoo.com/.malachimartinetc
http://groups.yahoo.com/preparedness_conspiracy
htt://politicallyunclassifiable.blogspot.com
Steve Hayes
2010-12-23 05:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by infowolf1
Two points.
One, regarding a Scripture that validates worship of idols, there is
none.
but when Paul warns against participating in idol related feasts, he
warns that while the idols are themselves nothing but objects, behind
them are demons, and when the gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to
demons.
St. john of Damascus, quoting St. Basil the Great, expounds on this
concept, "The honor given to an image reaches to the prototype"
and also since the Incarnation of Christ was God creating an express
image of Hiimself, it is therefore argued that when we give reverence
to Christ THROUGH an image, not TO the image, we are giving
Him proper honor.
And so, when one sacrifices to an idol, the honour reaches to the prototype,
ie the demon.

But what are "demons"?

In St Paul's time, in Greek paganism, daimones were lesser gods, and in later
Christian theology they came to be understood as fallen angels.

If you read Deut 32:1-9, you can see that God ruled the nations through
angels, and the nations were permitted to related to these lesser gods,
angelic intermediarias, the angels of the nations. Israel alone had a hot line
to the great King above all gods.

But since Christ has come, he draws all men, all nations to himself (cf Psalm
81/82, especially the last verse and John 12:31-32) and so we not all have a
hot line, for the dwelling of God is with men. And so demons that demand
worship for themselves since the coming of Christ are indeed fallen, and God
calls all men to himself, all nations, the gentiles, the ethni.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
old man joe
2010-12-23 12:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by infowolf1
Two points.
One, regarding a Scripture that validates worship of idols, there is
none.
but when Paul warns against participating in idol related feasts, he
warns that while the idols are themselves nothing but objects, behind
them are demons, and when the gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to
demons.
St. john of Damascus, quoting St. Basil the Great, expounds on this
concept, "The honor given to an image reaches to the prototype"
and also since the Incarnation of Christ was God creating an express
image of Hiimself, it is therefore argued that when we give reverence
to Christ THROUGH an image, not TO the image, we are giving
Him proper honor.
And so, when one sacrifices to an idol, the honour reaches to the prototype,
ie the demon.
But what are "demons"?
In St Paul's time, in Greek paganism, daimones were lesser gods, and in later
Christian theology they came to be understood as fallen angels.
If you read Deut 32:1-9, you can see that God ruled the nations through
angels, and the nations were permitted to related to these lesser gods,
angelic intermediarias, the angels of the nations. Israel alone had a hot line
to the great King above all gods.
De. 32:1-9 no where speaks of angels.
Post by Steve Hayes
But since Christ has come, he draws all men, all nations to himself (cf Psalm
81/82, especially the last verse and John 12:31-32) and so we not all have a
hot line, for the dwelling of God is with men. And so demons that demand
worship for themselves since the coming of Christ are indeed fallen, and God
calls all men to himself, all nations, the gentiles, the ethni.
if Christ drew all men to Himself there would be no one having graven images of Him since to have graven images of God is
contrary to His Commandments as in Ex. 20:3-6. idol worshipers kid themselves... lie to themselves and others... idol
worshipers are not redeemed, 1 Cor.6:9,10. they are liars according to God's own Word... " He that saith, I know him, and
keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. " 1 Jn. 2:4.
Steve Hayes
2010-12-23 17:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by Steve Hayes
If you read Deut 32:1-9, you can see that God ruled the nations through
angels, and the nations were permitted to related to these lesser gods,
angelic intermediarias, the angels of the nations. Israel alone had a hot line
to the great King above all gods.
De. 32:1-9 no where speaks of angels.
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, When he
separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the peoples according to the
number of the angels of God.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
old man joe
2010-12-23 12:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by infowolf1
Two points.
One, regarding a Scripture that validates worship of idols, there is
none.
but when Paul warns against participating in idol related feasts, he
warns that while the idols are themselves nothing but objects, behind
them are demons, and when the gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to
demons.
St. john of Damascus, quoting St. Basil the Great, expounds on this
concept, "The honor given to an image reaches to the prototype"
and also since the Incarnation of Christ was God creating an express
image of Hiimself, it is therefore argued that when we give reverence
to Christ THROUGH an image, not TO the image, we are giving
Him proper honor.
error. the respondent promotes idol worship... " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any
thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them... " Ex.20

this means have no idols even of God and pretend worship of Him through disobedience of having graven images of Him...

its normal for idolater's to quote other idolaters so they can overrule the Word of God... " St. john of Damascus, quoting
St. Basil the Great... "
Post by infowolf1
(a non sequitur got established, however, that if you reject icons,
then
you reject the Divine Incarnation itself. This is not necessarily the
case.)
so it is on the principle of, what is it that is being reached out to
through
an image? And what kind of worship, sacrificial or the lesser or just
veneration or honor like you might give to a human ruler, giving a
bow,
something that in neither OT nor NT is even addressed, though once
you have someone claiming to be a god you might have a conscience
problem, how do you separate the man and his false claims from his
office?
An idiot woman was cooing online once about how great it was that her
little boy venerated an upright image ina McDonald's of Darth Vader or
someone, as if venerating images, never mind of who, was a wonderful
sign of acquiring Orthodoxy. Not at all. In fact, there is an icon
that
should NEVER be in any church or at least not in reach of veneration.
It is one that shows the devil lurking to tempt Christ, among many
other figures in the icon, and the devil's position in the icon is
damnably near to where people often plant a kiss without thinking
on a picture. One priest warned, you must be careful, you might
end up venerating the devil!
2. regarding worshipping a book, that book was what the ancient
Fathers CONSTANTLY referred to establish the truth. The difference
between them and the heretics, was that they would take ALL
the Scriptures not just cherry pick, and work out the entire
tapestry they make, not some warped mess full of holes.
This is hard work. And it does not involve accepting blindly what you
get from a traditional source, or from a newcomer who pretends to
having access to secret tradition either.
Incidentally, if I read the cascade of quotes right, is joe claiming
that Christ is still dead? Does he deny the Resurrection? Or does
he think it was only some spiritual or semi physical mostly spiritual
thing?
Does not Christ tell us in that Book, that "touch me and see that
I have flesh and bones, not like a spirit?"
Was not the tomb empty?
Joe, you got a problem. (so do some Orthodox but it is a less
serious one, as long as we keep to those traditions that do have
their basis in Scripture. I worry about those that are accepting
the twisting of tradition that denies the sacrifice by Christ to The
Father AND to Himself AND to The All-Holy Spirit being an
atonement. St. John Cassian and St. Athanasius chapter
The Divine Dilemma and its Solution in On the Incarnation make
it clear that indeed it was a sin payment, and the remark about
debt to the grave was poetic only. God decreed the grave, and
burying our debt to God in the grave is just a roundabout way
of speaking of atonement. The Divine Dilemma EXPLICITLY
states that God was having to choose to let His creation go
downhill, or violate His word and His own integrity, or pay
the price Himself to Himself, thus keeping His word and getting
us back, and clearly His love prevailed in doing this, since
if only wrath prevailed He wouldn't have, and if He was without
integrity and broke His word, what safety would we have?
Justina
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/substitutionary_atonement_in_orthodoxy
http://groups.yahoo.com/.malachimartinetc
http://groups.yahoo.com/preparedness_conspiracy
htt://politicallyunclassifiable.blogspot.com
idol worshipers are not redeemed, 1 Cor. 6:9,10... with many Gnostic words they justify the worship of dead people and the
graven images of them.
duke
2010-12-22 13:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linards Ticmanis
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.
You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.
But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.
That's his stupid style. I think he's on the payroll at Chick Tracts.
I find it ironic that those 66-books guys (which of course don't include
all Protestants), in kicking out scriptures, removed some of the
strongest condemnations of idol worship from the bible. Such as the
Epistle of Jeremiah, or the story of the Baal and the dragon in the Book
of Daniel. Why would the Orthodox insist that those are scripture, if
they were so keen on worshiping idols as "old man joe" claims they are?
On the other hand, any idol worshiper would be quite happy to see these
texts removed from the Christian bible.
(I'm removing alt.atheism as I agree with the people of that group that
cross-posting discussions between Christians to there is not courteous.)
OMJ is most deserving of just being ignored. He's famous for taking a verse out
of scripture and completely twisting it to be meaningless basis it's true
existence and instead becoming something he has elected to trash.

The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
old man joe
2010-12-23 11:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.
You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.
But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.
That's his stupid style. I think he's on the payroll at Chick Tracts.
I find it ironic that those 66-books guys (which of course don't include
all Protestants), in kicking out scriptures, removed some of the
strongest condemnations of idol worship from the bible. Such as the
Epistle of Jeremiah, or the story of the Baal and the dragon in the Book
of Daniel. Why would the Orthodox insist that those are scripture, if
they were so keen on worshiping idols as "old man joe" claims they are?
On the other hand, any idol worshiper would be quite happy to see these
texts removed from the Christian bible.
(I'm removing alt.atheism as I agree with the people of that group that
cross-posting discussions between Christians to there is not courteous.)
OMJ is most deserving of just being ignored. He's famous for taking a verse out
of scripture and completely twisting it to be meaningless basis it's true
existence and instead becoming something he has elected to trash.
The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
you haven't answered on topic... how come ? because you can not find a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands
us to serve idols.
Steve Hayes
2010-12-23 17:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
you haven't answered on topic... how come ? because you can not find a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands
us to serve idols.
For the simple reason that there isn't one.

You're not just barking up the wrong tree, you're barking in the wrong forest.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
duke
2010-12-23 18:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.
You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.
But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.
That's his stupid style. I think he's on the payroll at Chick Tracts.
I find it ironic that those 66-books guys (which of course don't include
all Protestants), in kicking out scriptures, removed some of the
strongest condemnations of idol worship from the bible. Such as the
Epistle of Jeremiah, or the story of the Baal and the dragon in the Book
of Daniel. Why would the Orthodox insist that those are scripture, if
they were so keen on worshiping idols as "old man joe" claims they are?
On the other hand, any idol worshiper would be quite happy to see these
texts removed from the Christian bible.
(I'm removing alt.atheism as I agree with the people of that group that
cross-posting discussions between Christians to there is not courteous.)
OMJ is most deserving of just being ignored. He's famous for taking a verse out
of scripture and completely twisting it to be meaningless basis it's true
existence and instead becoming something he has elected to trash.
you haven't answered on topic... how come ? because you can not find a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands
us to serve idols.
He doesn't. And we Catholics don't. It couldn't be any more truthful than
that.

The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
pyotr filipivich
2010-12-28 21:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by old man joe
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
Post by duke
Post by Linards Ticmanis
We know as well as we do that there is no such commandment, and nobody
claims that there is.
You prove from the bible that one shouldn't worship idols. That is very
true and the bible does indeed say so, over and over and over again.
But then you declare that we worship idols, without proving *that* from
the bible at all. You simply state it as fact without any proof at all.
That's his stupid style. I think he's on the payroll at Chick Tracts.
I find it ironic that those 66-books guys (which of course don't include
all Protestants), in kicking out scriptures, removed some of the
strongest condemnations of idol worship from the bible. Such as the
Epistle of Jeremiah, or the story of the Baal and the dragon in the Book
of Daniel. Why would the Orthodox insist that those are scripture, if
they were so keen on worshiping idols as "old man joe" claims they are?
On the other hand, any idol worshiper would be quite happy to see these
texts removed from the Christian bible.
(I'm removing alt.atheism as I agree with the people of that group that
cross-posting discussions between Christians to there is not courteous.)
OMJ is most deserving of just being ignored. He's famous for taking a verse out
of scripture and completely twisting it to be meaningless basis it's true
existence and instead becoming something he has elected to trash.
The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
you haven't answered on topic... how come ? because you can not find a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands
us to serve idols.
joey boyo, you are asking why nobody provides a verse from
scripture in support of the idea that a triangle has four sides. Your
very question is so preposterous as to be meaningless. The only one
who believes in four sided triangles is you.
--
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
Steve Hayes
2010-12-29 07:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by old man joe
you haven't answered on topic... how come ? because you can not find a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands
us to serve idols.
joey boyo, you are asking why nobody provides a verse from
scripture in support of the idea that a triangle has four sides. Your
very question is so preposterous as to be meaningless. The only one
who believes in four sided triangles is you.
Maybe he lives in a non-Euclidian universe?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
pyotr filipivich
2010-12-30 21:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by old man joe
you haven't answered on topic... how come ? because you can not find a single passage of Holy Scripture where God commands
us to serve idols.
joey boyo, you are asking why nobody provides a verse from
scripture in support of the idea that a triangle has four sides. Your
very question is so preposterous as to be meaningless. The only one
who believes in four sided triangles is you.
Maybe he lives in a non-Euclidian universe?
Even in a non-Euclidean universe, a triangle only has three sides.
--
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
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